{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1150", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1150, "subject": "RTTW spoilers, the main narrator", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-02-13T12:56:49+00:00", "last": "2001-02-16T18:15:24+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "2001-02-13T12:56:49+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) RTTW spoilers, the main narrator", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam quoted and wrote:\nEek! In my rush to express my intuition that the Silk-to-Horn/Silk\ntransfer happened at a very specific point in the text (when Horn/Silk sees\nPig face to face after the operation), not off-stage somewhere (nor\nanywhere else in time), I temporarily forgot all the monitor-to-eyeball\n\"rules of possession\" previously established." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hope you won't be offended if I ask you where this intuition comes from.\nI'm sure you understand the book much better than me, but I honestly don't\nrecall anything which even suggests that Silk's spirit is absent from his\nbody when Horn's spirit is transferred in, and is \"reloaded\" from Pig after\nthe operation (if I understand your position correctly)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC, as Horn lay dying in the lander on Green, the deal expressed by the\nNeighbors was something like: from two broken men we will make one whole\nman. And since Horn's \"broken\" nature was a dead body, well, it seemed as\nif the broken part of Silk was something different, for example, a\nspirit/soul that was seeking oblivion. So if this is true, then Horn's\nhealthy spirit is poured into Silk's healthy body (which also just happens\nto be on the Whorl, where Horn had been trying to go).\n\nWe have plenty of cases in Wolfe's fiction where two complete spirits are\nin one body: Severian and Thecla, the serpent magician in the Soldier\nbooks. We also have ambiguous cases, like Jonas-in-Miles, or the case of\nJolenta (possession by a vision?). We also have cases (BOTLS) where\nfragments are left behind after a possession, and the same may be true when\na spirit is vacated from its original body (so it need not be an\n\"absolutely either/or\" situation).\n\nTo turn your question around: if, as you seem to be saying, Silk's spirit\n=was= already in Silk's body, and Horn's spirit is in there, too (a\nSeverian/Thecla situation: the Neighbor maybe should have said \"you will be\na crutch for a broken man--until he heals\" rather than that other way of\ntwo broken men being used to make one whole man? Certainly seems true, in\na sense, in retrospect!), then I fail to see the drive/point/goal of the\nnarrator in making sure that he catches the spirit from Pig when it comes\nout. Presumably the spirit in Pig is Silk-from-mainframe, right? So . . .\nwhat? You already have a 100% Silk spirit in that body, along with a 100%\nHorn spirit. Why have 200% Silk?\n\nPlease explain your own sense of it all. Is the spirit in Pig not Silk at\nall, despite the suggestions surrounding Pig's behavior with the ghost\n(Hyacinth, do you think?) in the mansion? If it is not Silk, who is\nit--Pas himself (at which point the mansion ghost is . . . Kypris?)? So\nthe goal is to become Silk/Pas/Horn?\n\nMy model is that yes, Silk's spirit was weak and left; Horn's spirit\nentered; Silk's spirit and Horn's body both left the picture. At some time\nbefore this, either a long time (if we believe Pig's tale of odyessy) or a\nshorter time than that, for one reason or another, that version of\nSilk-in-mainframe that we saw so briefly in BOTLS was downloaded into Pig.\nHad Silk-in-mainframe been cured of his melancholy? Was he new and\nimproved and intended to \"upgrade\" Silk? (If so, then why not just beam\ndirectly into Silk himself? Was his area a \"no monitor\" zone?) Was\nSilk-in-mainframe going out on a quest of his own (could be anything, but\nprobably \"no more landings, get ready to voyage again\"), and this was\nsabotaged by the crippling loss of eyes? At which point, perhaps, the\ninterrum quest became \"Find Silk; then complete the quest\"?\n\nSo my model is that the Silk-in-Pig is not the same spirit as the Silk that\nleft Silk's body. Silk-in-Pig is perhaps the scan from a happier Silk\n(again recalling the vision we had of Passilk in TBOTLS), before everything\nfell apart at the end of TBOTLS, and certainly long before the series of\npolitical defeats, heartbreaks over Hyacinth while she was alive and the\ncrushing experience after her death.\n\nLooking forward to seeing your model.\n\n=mantis=\n\nSirius Fiction\nCatalog and errata sheet at http://www.sirius.com/~mantis/\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-02-16T10:54:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) RTTW spoilers, the main narrator", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 2/13/01 8:56 PM, Michael Andre-Driussi at mantis at sirius.com wrote:\nIIRC, as Horn lay dying in the lander on Green, the deal expressed by the\nNeighbors was something like: from two broken men we will make one whole\nman. And since Horn's \"broken\" nature was a dead body, well, it seemed as\nif the broken part of Silk was something different, for example, a\nspirit/soul that was seeking oblivion. So if this is true, then Horn's\nhealthy spirit is poured into Silk's healthy body (which also just happens\nto be on the Whorl, where Horn had been trying to go)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree with all of this; in fact, the Neighbor says he will send Horn's\nspirit \"into someone whose own spirit is dying.\" I think that this means\njust what you say above: that Silk's spirit was seeking oblivion, not that\nit was on its way out of Silk's body." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To turn your question around: if, as you seem to be saying, Silk's spirit\n=was= already in Silk's body, and Horn's spirit is in there, too" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(a\nSeverian/Thecla situation: the Neighbor maybe should have said \"you will be\na crutch for a broken man--until he heals\" rather than that other way of\ntwo broken men being used to make one whole man? Certainly seems true, in\na sense, in retrospect!), then I fail to see the drive/point/goal of the\nnarrator in making sure that he catches the spirit from Pig when it comes\nout." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here is where I was misunderstanding you: I had not realized you thought\nthat Horn had deliberately sought to get Silk-from-mainframe downloaded into\nhim from Pig. Now that you say this, I can see that there is some evidence\nin the book to support this: there is the extraordinary effort \"Horn\" makes\nto visit Pig, and at the start of Chapter 18, \"Horn\" denies that it was\n\"'good a' yer'\" to visit Pig, and says \"'I came so that you might see me.'\"\nBut I don't believe it, for several reasons. For one thing, possession\ndoesn't happen automatically, and \"Horn\" never asks Silk-in-mainframe to\nenter him, or at least we are never told about it. Okay, maybe it happened\nbefore he got a chance to ask, and he knew this. But that comes up against\nmy second point. In the dialogue with Silk-in-Pig on p. 374, \"Horn\" doesn't\nsound like he's expecting or hoping that Silk-in-mainframe will or has\nentered him. He believes he has failed.\n\nThe third point: at the end of Chapter 16, as \"Horn\" is crawling to Pig, \"At\nhis elbow Crane's ghost murmured, 'Is it really worth all this to fight free\nof Hari Mau for an hour or two, Silk?'\" Assuming that it is not really\nCrane's ghost talking (and why would he be hanging around the West Pole?) it\nis either \"Horn\"'s unconscious, or \"Horn\" imagining what the sardonic Crane\nwould say; in either case it is really \"Horn\" speaking. But if \"Horn\"'s\nvisiting Pig were a plan to fulfill his mission, \"Horn\" would not accuse\nhimself of seeking just \"'to fight free of Hari Mau for an hour or two.'\"\n(\"Crane\"'s words are also further evidence that Silk's spirit is already\npresent in \"Horn\"; \"Horn\" would hardly hallucinate or imagine Crane's ghost\ncalling him \"Silk\" if it were just a question of physical resemblance.)\n\nI think that \"Horn\" went to visit Pig because he was his friend, with\npossibly a touch of the motive \"Crane\" attributes; and that his denial that\nit's \"'good a' yer'\" is just his modesty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So . . .\nwhat? You already have a 100% Silk spirit in that body, along with a 100%\nHorn spirit. Why have 200% Silk?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This would not be much of an obstacle to my theory, in any case: if \"Horn\"\ndoesn't realize he is Silk already, he might well seek to get Silk\ndownloaded into him. But in fact I don't believe he sought to get Silk, or\nanybody else, downloaded into him, so the point is moot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Looking forward to seeing your model." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Most of my model you've seen already, and the rest I've said above, but I'll\nsummarize it: Silk tries to commit suicide. The dying Horn's spirit is\nprojected into Silk by the Neighbor. Silk and Horn's spirit merge, with\nSilk's personality dominant but burying its identity in Horn's memories.\nPig is possessed by Silk-in-mainframe (I have no opinion on when this\nhappened, or on what era Silk this is), but Silkhorn does not seek to be\npossessed by Silk-in-mainframe, nor is he. Eventually Horn's spirit\ndisappears from Silkhorn, for obscure reasons, and shortly afterwards Silk\nis brought to realize his true identity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In another post, mantis wrote:\nYes, well put. However, Adam, wouldn't it be an even stronger case if the\nworld-weary Silk-who-saw-Hyacinth-dead was gone and replaced by a fresh\nSilk-who-did-not-even-know-she-was-sick? So that the only one in that body\nwho knew the complete truth about Hyacinth was the Horn spirit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Pig has seen the dead Hyacinth (and knows it is her) and tells Hound\nabout it (83). Silk-in-Pig would be aware of Hyacinth's death at this\npoint, if not before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thus, a new-Silk \"coming up to speed on the events of the last few years\"\nrather than old-Silk being completely delusional." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm afraid I don't follow you here. Why does new-Silk's \"coming up to\nspeed\" have as a consequence his not manifesting himself in Horn (at least\nnot that we see) until he reads the hyacinth passage, at which point he\ntakes over completely?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The narrator must know that he isn't \"Silk\" (whether this is \"oldSilk\" or\n\"mainframeSilk\" or \"litSilk,\" or some combination thereof, doesn't matter\nat the moment) but he must have some inkling that the Silk-he-is-not exists\nsomewhere else (mainframe, for example, the place where the dead folk go).\n\nI think that the narrator knows he is in Silk's body, but still this is\nsomething that is constantly being grappled with internally, as well as\nexternally, since everybody he meets assumes that he is Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now, when the narrator strongly suspects that there is a Silk in Pig,\nobviously (according to the reasoning above) he would get very excited.\nMust get that Silk!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To avoid misunderstanding, let me summarize what I think you're saying: Horn\nknows that he's in Silk's body and that he isn't Silk, so he knows that the\nquest to bring back the physical Silk is a failure. But then he discovers\nSilk-in-Pig, and realizes he can fulfill his quest by letting this Silk\npossess him. But if this model were correct, then once Horn gets\nconfirmation that Silk is possessing Pig, he should refocus his quest on\ncuring Pig's blindness. And this doesn't happen. When he meets Calde\nBison, he asks him where Silk is, and is in despair when Bison says he\ndoesn't know (286). And, mulling over his time in New Viron, the narrator\nwrites: \"When the Prolocutor had me sacrifice in the Grand Manteion ... it\ntipped the scales toward failure. Had I not acceded to his request, I might\nhave found Silk, whom I heard was staying at our inn, although only when it\nwas too late.\" (264) Neither of these passages makes sense if Horn's goal\nat this point is to cure Pig's blindness; both imply he is still searching\nfor the physical Silk. (The latter is also further evidence that the\nnarrator still cannot admit to himself he is in Silk's body.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But judging by the results, which happen before the\nfirst word of TBOTSS is written, the Silk he got wasn't the Silk he was\nlooking for." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So (again to avoid misunderstanding) at some point Horn \"tried out\" the\ndownloaded Silk-in-Pig in him and discovered that, for some reason, it\nwouldn't do. But the end of the scene with Remora doesn't fit with this\nmodel. Remora says: \"'Horn did not fail us, Patera. Calde. You see that\nnow?' Silk nodded.\" If your model were correct, Silk's response should\nhave been \"But he did fail, because I'm not the Silk that New Viron needs\n[or whatever the reason was].\"\n\nThere is also the question of why none of these events--Horn's decision to\nseek to get Silk-in-Pig downloaded into himself, the actual downloading, and\nthe testing and rejection of the downloaded Silk--are mentioned in the text.\nWas Horn so embarrassed by the fiasco that he decided not to say anything\nabout it to anyone? Even if there wasn't so much evidence against your\nmodel, the fact that it relies on so many crucial events not mentioned in\nthe text would make me very reluctant to accept it.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Spectacled Bear", "address": "spectacled.bear at pobox.com" }, "date": "2001-02-16T18:15:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) RTTW spoilers, the main narrator", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:54 2001-02-16 -0600, Adam Stephanides wrote:\non 2/13/01 8:56 PM, Michael Andre-Driussi at mantis at sirius.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "IIRC, as Horn lay dying in the lander on Green, the deal expressed by the\nNeighbors was something like: from two broken men we will make one whole\nman. And since Horn's \"broken\" nature was a dead body, well, it seemed as\nif the broken part of Silk was something different, for example, a\nspirit/soul that was seeking oblivion. So if this is true, then Horn's\nhealthy spirit is poured into Silk's healthy body (which also just happens\nto be on the Whorl, where Horn had been trying to go)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with all of this; in fact, the Neighbor says he will send Horn's\nspirit \"into someone whose own spirit is dying.\" I think that this means\njust what you say above: that Silk's spirit was seeking oblivion, not that\nit was on its way out of Silk's body." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To turn your question around: if, as you seem to be saying, Silk's spirit\n=was= already in Silk's body, and Horn's spirit is in there, too" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Why do we need all the stuff about the fragment in Pig?\nI didn't see any evidence for it in the text, and it simply\nseems unnecessary. Adam makes a far better case against it\nthan I could have assembled - thanks, Adam!\n\nSpectacled Bear." } ] } ] }