{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1155", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1155, "subject": "RTTW spoilers: alga's complaints", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2001-02-13T20:16:01+00:00", "last": "2001-02-14T12:04:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "2001-02-13T20:16:01+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) RTTW spoilers: alga's complaints", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Putting aside the godling issue as the lesser, I'm still working on how\nalga is bugged by Jahlee's death.\n\nAside about Twain: well, we might agree he had some authorial mishap there,\nbut the thing is that TOM SAWYER, with all its slickness, is still\nconsidered a juvenile novel, whereas flawed HUCKLEBERRY FINN is literature.\nAnd nobody talks about the other novel (or two?) that features these\nfellows.\n\nAside about RTTW's ending seeming to exhibit authorial fatigue. Oh, really?\nIf he were tired of the characters I'd expect a retirement of some sort,\nhappily ever after or simply dead--I'd hardly expect him to launch them on\na starship!\n\nNow I know we are not talking about something as simple as a happy ending,\nand yet the yearning for a happy ending might play a part. Around these\nparts we've had discussions among a few people with regard to TBOTNS, that\nbasically boil down to: \"But =why= do all the people have to die as Urth is\nflooded into Ushas?\" Some people are really, really bothered by this--that\nthe \"victory\" at the ending is so tainted by the megadeath, to the point\nthat it ain't really happy at all . . . and we have valid debates over\nwhether Severian is more anti-christ than saviour.\n\nSo I can understand a disappointment like that: the belief that somehow,\nthe hero was going to complete the quest =and= avoid the awful penalties,\nbut then the quest is finished and the consequences are worse than\nimagined.\n\nCan you agree that the situation of Jahlee and Horn is like Jim and Huck\nfloating down the river?\n\nHere's another analogy, this time from film: you liked \"Crouching Tiger,\nHidden Dragon\" pretty well. SPOILER WARNING!\n\n\n\nAs much as we would like a 100% happy ending to that fine film, after a\ncertain point we would be perfectly willing to accept a 50% happy ending\n(i.e., the younger couple), yet even that is snatched away by a device\nwhich seems quite arbitrary, raising all sorts of questions (nevertheless,\nI have my theories, of course: mainly that she really =is= who she jokingly\nsaid she was at the restaurant). Now then, does this diminish the movie?\nI certainly don't think so, and I doubt that you do.\n\nOf course you are entitled to your opinions. You don't have to like the\ndeath of Jahlee--fwiw, I don't like it, but I see that it flows from what\ncame before it. You think it perfunctory, and if it were written in the\n3rd person authorial voice I might agree with you, but it is written by the\nman who did it, and it is too painful for him to write any more than he\ndoes. It seems to me that the moment was an explosion, where Jahlee shed\nher mask and was a vampire, and Silk, spiritual son of Pike the Vampire\nSlayer, suddenly burst into violent action. A side of the narrator he is\nnot at all happy about; an aspect which seems to betray all that he has\nbeen working towards.\n\n=mantis=\n\nSirius Fiction\nCatalog and errata sheet at http://www.sirius.com/~mantis/\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Spectacled Bear", "address": "spectacled.bear at pobox.com" }, "date": "2001-02-14T12:04:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) RTTW spoilers: alga's complaints", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 20:16 2001-02-13 -0800, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nPutting aside the godling issue as the lesser, I'm still working on how\nalga is bugged by Jahlee's death." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let me have a go.\n\n1. Jahlee thinks of herself as a beautiful woman - a bit of a vamp,\none might say. Compare her teasing Hide, and probably others, plus\nthe guard on Urth, and her general attitude.\n\n2. The Rajan is a) charismatic b) powerful c) the first man who has\never treated her with kindness, let alone respect. If alga or anyone\nelse can make a case for her *not* falling in love with him, I'd like\nto see it.\n\n3. She meets Nettle. Nettle is her great rival. Even if she was human,\nhow safe would Nettle? But Jahlee isn't human, however kind Horn has\nbeen to her, however much she wants to be (and Nettle *is*, which would\ninspire bitterness and envy in a better person than Jahlee).\nWithout wishing to appear speciesist, she *is* a blood drinking reptile.\nAnd Horn loves Nettle. He really does, though he may not have been very\ngood at showing it, and Jahlee can see that.\n\nGiven the above, if you were Jahlee, could *you* resist biting Nettle?\n\nAnd if you were Horn, how would you feel when you saw it?\nThe original Horn, dour, impulsive, and knowing the inhumi only\nas vampiric monsters, would be right in there. Horn who has come\nto know Jahlee might feel more charitably towards her, but the\nbetrayal will surely make this *more* horrific for him. There's\nhardly an aspect of his character, Horn or Silk, that isn't going\nto be outraged. He loves Nettle. He brought Jahlee to Lizard, and\nshe betrayed his trust - both her guilt and his own, projected,\nare going to add vehemence to his attack. It's significant that\nhe doesn't calmly use the lethal weapon he carries. This is personal.\nI've spent a paragraph arguing for the plausibility of Horn attacking\nthe inhuma who's biting his wife, but I don't really need to, I think.\n\nFinally, though he didn't intend murder (I'm fairly sure of that),\nshe's hardly going to get better. There isn't much place in a happy\nending for a jealous vampire, however much we want there to be.\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aside about RTTW's ending seeming to exhibit authorial fatigue. Oh, really?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's nonsense. Sorry, alga, my unicellular friend, but what I mean\nis that I don't agree with it at all. I found the resolution of the book\nto be as satisfying as advertised, which is very interesting considering\nit only involved a change of point of view - \"does Horn know he's Silk?\"\nis a nonsensical question when looked at closely. It's a contradiction,\nand the resolution is that only Silk can be Silk. It is more than a change\nof perspective as well, of course - Silk recovers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If he were tired of the characters I'd expect a retirement of some sort,\nhappily ever after or simply dead--I'd hardly expect him to launch them on\na starship!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I must admit, as an aside to the aside, that of all the possible things\nthat I could have guessed might happen, Nettle setting out on a starship\nwas not one of them!\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can you agree that the situation of Jahlee and Horn is like Jim and Huck\nfloating down the river?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It sounds like it to me. There was always going to be trouble when\nhe got home. I wish there wasn't, but that isn't realistic.\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course you are entitled to your opinions. You don't have to like the\ndeath of Jahlee--fwiw, I don't like it, but I see that it flows from what\ncame before it. You think it perfunctory, and if it were written in the\n3rd person authorial voice I might agree with you, but it is written by the\nman who did it, and it is too painful for him to write any more than he\ndoes. It seems to me that the moment was an explosion, where Jahlee shed\nher mask and was a vampire, and Silk, spiritual son of Pike the Vampire\nSlayer, suddenly burst into violent action. A side of the narrator he is\nnot at all happy about; an aspect which seems to betray all that he has\nbeen working towards." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And he stops writing. For a compulsive scribbler like Horn, this is an\nindication of a highly traumatic experience.\n\nSpectacled Bear.\n\n[" } ] } ] }