{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1163", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1163, "subject": "Long, cranky post", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-02-14T19:53:25+00:00", "last": "2001-02-16T18:42:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "akt", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2001-02-14T19:53:25+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Long, cranky post", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From W. Ansley:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In fact I got heartily sick of all of the \"distinctive\" ways Wolfe\ncame up with for his characters to speak in this book: Pig's dialect,\nthe village of the Yodas, Olivine's repeating, Olivine's repeating\nherself, Prolocutor Italics and Remora's mumblings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, me too. Pulpy, sort of cheap and not in the least consistent--not\nin the Italian or Hindu encounters. Also the moralizing got boring--but\nto contradict myself, I did love IJG in spite of HornSilk yattering on\nand on to Fava and Mora. I guess I just liked *them,* the girls, though,\ndamnit, I liked Jahlee even more (much more complex). I intermitently\ndid find Remora entertaining, though it went way too far." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " > The encounter with the godling struck me as very similar to one\nof\nSev's\n meetings with Juturna ('I would save you'), or with the\nhierodules,\nwhere\n they kneel before him. In a sense, the godling is a debased\nversion of\na\n hierodule, and recognises Silk as the 'holy one'.\n\nWell, yes. But I do think the operative word is \"debased.\" I love\nJuturna and the hierodules and think they are used *extremely* well\nby\nthe author (especially in that last book that some on this list like\nto\nput down), but as I said in an earlier post, the godling, to me,\nseems\nlike a Hollywood special effect that serves no purpose other than\ncover\nart." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was also bothered by the impossibly large size of the (big)\ngodling. Wolfe should make up his mind, is he writing science fiction\nor isn't he?\nAt 20:16 2001-02-13 -0800, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Putting aside the godling issue as the lesser, I'm still working on\nhow\nalga is bugged by Jahlee's death." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From the Myopic Bear:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let me have a go.\n\n1. Jahlee thinks of herself as a beautiful woman - a bit of a vamp,\none might say. Compare her teasing Hide, and probably others, plus\nthe guard on Urth, and her general attitude.\n\n2. The Rajan is a) charismatic b) powerful c) the first man who has\never treated her with kindness, let alone respect. If alga or anyone\nelse can make a case for her *not* falling in love with him, I'd like\nto see it.\n\n3. She meets Nettle. Nettle is her great rival. Even if she was human,\nhow safe would Nettle? But Jahlee isn't human, however kind Horn has\nbeen to her, however much she wants to be (and Nettle *is*, which\nwould\ninspire bitterness and envy in a better person than Jahlee).\nWithout wishing to appear speciesist, she *is* a blood drinking\nreptile.\nAnd Horn loves Nettle. He really does, though he may not have been\nvery\ngood at showing it, and Jahlee can see that.\n\nGiven the above, if you were Jahlee, could *you* resist biting Nettle?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bear,\n\nI would go right along with you--were we reading a different sort of\nbook. But we have been taken on a journey where great changes have\noccured. And Jahlee is an important character, who has been taken up to\nnow much more seriously than Dorcas or Jolenta. For her to act in this\nway seems pretty cheap to me, an author lining up his exits so as to get\nout in a hurry (I truly object to the way all the still living\nconcubines (or such) are herded off at the end for a silly Star Trek\nadventure, whether they have motivation or not)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if you were Horn, how would you feel when you saw it?\nThe original Horn, dour, impulsive, and knowing the inhumi only\nas vampiric monsters, would be right in there. Horn who has come\nto know Jahlee might feel more charitably towards her, but the\nbetrayal will surely make this *more* horrific for him. There's\nhardly an aspect of his character, Horn or Silk, that isn't going\nto be outraged. He loves Nettle. He brought Jahlee to Lizard, and\nshe betrayed his trust - both her guilt and his own, projected,\nare going to add vehemence to his attack. It's significant that\nhe doesn't calmly use the lethal weapon he carries. This is personal.\nI've spent a paragraph arguing for the plausibility of Horn attacking\nthe inhuma who's biting his wife, but I don't really need to, I think.\n\nFinally, though he didn't intend murder (I'm fairly sure of that),\nshe's hardly going to get better. There isn't much place in a happy\nending for a jealous vampire, however much we want there to be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bear, it's not Horn. It's Silk. I'm worried about that: it really *is*\nmurder. After all they've been through? (H/S and J. I mean.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Aside about RTTW's ending seeming to exhibit authorial fatigue. Oh,\nreally?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, that's nonsense. Sorry, alga, my unicellular friend, but what I\nmean\nis that I don't agree with it at all. I found the resolution of the\nbook\nto be as satisfying as advertised, which is very interesting\nconsidering\nit only involved a change of point of view - \"does Horn know he's\nSilk?\"\nis a nonsensical question when looked at closely. It's a\ncontradiction,\nand the resolution is that only Silk can be Silk. It is more than a\nchange\nof perspective as well, of course - Silk recovers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If he were tired of the characters I'd expect a retirement of some\nsort,\nhappily ever after or simply dead--I'd hardly expect him to launch\nthem on\na starship!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I must admit, as an aside to the aside, that of all the possible\nthings\nthat I could have guessed might happen, Nettle setting out on a\nstarship\nwas not one of them!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Authorial fatigue, my esteemed furry friend." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Allan Lloyd " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Although there are of course many good things in RTTW, overall I found\nit one of the most disappointing of Wolfe's books. The initial\nimpression of the cover right through to the awful proof reading make\nit\nseem an unattractive and rushed book.\n\nAs Alga said, Pig's accent is extremely annoying (it sounds more\nNewcastle Geordie than Scottish to me), but his whole character does\nnot\nconvince. Compare Pig to Auk, both performing similar functions in\ntheir\nrespective books. When Auk suffers from concussion in the tunnels we\nfeel real sympathy and concern for him, and although he is a violent\ncriminal he has redeeming qualities which make him a well rounded\ncharacter. Pig does nothing but fawn over Horn/Silk and whine about\nhis\ne'en. Like Alga, I feel that I am being manipulated into feeling sorry\nfor him. Giving someone a quirky way of speaking is a very lazy way of\nshowing character, and is an increasingly worrying feature of Wolfe's\nrecent work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As above, ditto." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Other points in the book that did not work for me-\n\n1. Projecting astral versions of yourself to other planets is a\nconvenient and unbelievable fantasy gimmick which may work in Edgar\nRice\nBurroughs, but does not sit well with the predominantly sf approach of\nthe rest of the book. Even the time travel in BOTNS is given some\njustification, but I find instantaneous projection over a distance\nthat\nhas taken the Whorl 300 years to travel completely unconvincing. And\nwhen the various groups are in their astral bodies, how can we read\nabout Oreb without laughing. The image of Oreb as a child of four with\nfeathers, or a feathered dwarf instantly stops your suspension of\nbelief. The image is straight from Sesame Street or the Muppets." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the point is made that he is \"more human\" than he seems, but yes,\nit really is sort of Goofy (or Disneylandish), and I agree that it's\ncheap." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. We are asked to believe that faithful Oreb, the most honest\ncharacter in the book, has been possessed by Scylla for most of the\nthree books. This is the violent jealous Scylla who, when possessing\nChenille, first ordered the sacrifice of a harmless fisherman, then\nchanged her mind to request the sacrifice of 50 to 100 babies to\nattract\nher attention. So all the time Oreb has been possessed by a cruel\nvindictive Goddess. Often in Wolfe's books I don't understand what is\nhappening, so I read again and again to try to work out the meaning.\nThis is the first time that I have simply not been convinced. The idea\nreads like something that was tacked on just to produce a shock, with\nlittle preperation or purpose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely agreed--I'm annoyed by this too, and feel that it is an\nunwarrented and even unethical tweaking of readers's sensibilities. I\nrealize that sounds pompous, but it seems to me a further proof that\nWolfe was getting bored with this endless series and just wanted to stir\nthings up a bit before skedadling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. Seawrack. In the first book, Seawrack is a significant part of the\naction. We want to know more about her, why she is given to Horn, what\nis the motive of the Mother. So in the next two books she is just\nforgotten. Like Dorcas, she emerges from the water, supports the\nprotagonist, and then is casually dumped. It is almost as if Wolfe\nthought \"sea voyage, Odyssey, must have a Siren\" and then lost\ninterest.\nThis makes her offstage reunion with Silk at the end of the book seem\ncasual and pointless, and I fail to see her motive in joining the\nreturn\nto the Whorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm on your side, bro. What could possibly develop from the Star Trek\nvoyage of this feral--and psychically damaged-- creature? She seems to\nbe included only as a sex object, TV style." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. The Neighbors. Mysterious Aborigines are appearing with alarming\nregularity in Wolfe's books, and are becoming a bit of a cliche.\nAll-powerful near-supernatural beings are very useful for getting your\nhero out of a jam, but in this case come across as just one more layer\nof plot manipulators. Horn is given a magic ring so that he can see\nthem, loses it on Green, is presented with a replacement which changes\nsize and colour at random (why?). This is the stuff of fantasy and\ndoes\nnot fit the atmosphere of the book.\n And why give the neighbors (and the other fauna of Blue) a double\nquota of arms, legs and eyes? To see why it does not work, look at the\nNeighbor on the cover of IGJ. This is the worst sort of science\nfiction\nshorthand, a gimmick that saves the trouble of original thought. Can\nyou\nimagine an ur-elephant with eight legs, two trunks and four eyes?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed here too, not necessarily about the legs--Wolfe is entitled, and\nmaybe he is thinking of Odin, and Sleipnir's eight legs--but it's true\nthat the Neighbors are never resolved. Not fair to readers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "5. The Horn/Silk/Horn question has been discussed enough already. All\nI\nwant to add is that I found the final revelation contrived and\nunconvincing, a bit like the final twist to a horror movie, there\nbecause there always is a final twist." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed here too, and much too Hollywood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "6. Can anyone explain why Merryn should be Severian's sister. There\nwas\nno sign of recognition in their scene together in BOTNS, and there\nseems\nno reason that they should be related. Just because they are similar\nages and both probable orphans, they have to be siblings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shakespearian" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "coincidence again?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had hoped for much more here too. the meeting seems not only\nperfunctory but mean-spirited wrt Merryn. Merryn counted for a lot more\nin the encounter with the Cumae and we had legitimate hopes for more\nfrom her.\n\nRetort to those who object to: Right Bro, I agree, statements: Adam\nLloyd is a pretty new poster, this is a good post. I do agree with most\nof it. And I can use some help in an adversarial position.\n\nFrom vizcacha:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find Jahlee's death very straightforward, if disappointing. Jahlee\nattacks\nNettle because she has always loved Horn, and she will never have him\nbecause Horn loves Nettle. Horn kills Jahlee because she violated the\nagreement never to touch his family, not to mention his obvious rage\nthat\nhis wife is being attacked (no Michael Dukakis, he). (Yes, this\nagreement\nwas made with Krait, but that's a legal quibble; as Rajan his\nagreement with\nher was all-encompassing, too). Jahlee is clearly a loose cannon,\nalmost as\nmuch so as Jugurna. Doesn't the attack happen the morning after\nHorn/Silk\nand Nettle spend the night together? Jahlee has no way of knowing\nthere was\nno \"warm commerce\" involved. She is a woman \"trapped in the body of a\nblood-drinking reptile,\" and she will never be human, never experience\nthe\nkind of love Horn has for Nettle. The tragedy of the inhumi is that\nthey are\nhumans who will never be human.\n\nI wonder if Wolfe's \"failure\" to provide a satisfying conclusion to\nthe\nproblem of the inhumi is that there is none. The inhumi, like evil in\nthe\nabstract, are created by people. If people solve the problem of evil,\nthey\nwill solve the problem of the inhumi.\n\nNot your usual SF resolution, where Silk would have found the Seekret\nFormula for Inhumi-bane hidden away in Mainframe (virtual reality\nsword-fight with Pas optional). I see Keanu Reeves as Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gee, I thought he was blond. I think your argument would work if Jahlee\nreally were still a \"loose cannon.\" But should she be? Wolfe put a lot\nof work into Krait and Jahlee (and Quetzal too). Should he have dismissd\nthem so quickly when they became incovenient. Q, yes, I'd agree. K,\nmaybe. But J's end just seems hasty and pulpy; with more of Nettle's\ninput it might have worked better. Or more emphasis on, as you say, the\n\"human who will never be human.\" It's kind of Bette Davis without the\nsuperior qualities that made Bette soar sometimes. Face it, Wolfe is\n*not* very good with women characters, see details of above long boring\npost.\n\n-alga\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2001-02-14T22:41:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Long, cranky post", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 07:53 PM 2/14/01 -0500, Alga wrote:\nI intermitently\ndid find Remora entertaining, though it went way too far." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's amazing that Wolfe put the emotional climax of the entire\nseries into the hands of Remora, who up to that point had basically been\ncomic relief. And pulled it off. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Kevin \"Wombat\" Maroney\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Spectacled Bear", "address": "spectacled.bear at pobox.com" }, "date": "2001-02-16T18:42:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Long, cranky post", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 19:53 2001-02-14 -0500, akt at attglobal.net wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Given the above, if you were Jahlee, could *you* resist biting Nettle?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From the Myopic Bear:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bear,\n\nI would go right along with you--were we reading a different sort of\nbook. But we have been taken on a journey where great changes have\noccured. And Jahlee is an important character, who has been taken up to\nnow much more seriously than Dorcas or Jolenta." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh. Ah. Well, mm. Still, I enjoyed _RttW_ while I was reading it :-/\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Finally, though he didn't intend murder (I'm fairly sure of that),\nshe's hardly going to get better. There isn't much place in a happy\nending for a jealous vampire, however much we want there to be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bear, it's not Horn. It's Silk. I'm worried about that: it really *is*\nmurder. After all they've been through? (H/S and J. I mean.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's both of them, and he was defending Nettle. I do agree that\nit's a Bad Thing to happen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2. We are asked to believe that faithful Oreb, the most honest\ncharacter in the book, has been possessed by Scylla for most of the\nthree books. This is the violent jealous Scylla who, when possessing\nChenille, first ordered the sacrifice of a harmless fisherman, then\nchanged her mind to request the sacrifice of 50 to 100 babies to\nattract\nher attention. So all the time Oreb has been possessed by a cruel\nvindictive Goddess. Often in Wolfe's books I don't understand what is\nhappening, so I read again and again to try to work out the meaning.\nThis is the first time that I have simply not been convinced. The idea\nreads like something that was tacked on just to produce a shock, with\nlittle preperation or purpose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Absolutely agreed--I'm annoyed by this too, and feel that it is an\nunwarrented and even unethical tweaking of readers's sensibilities. I\nrealize that sounds pompous, but it seems to me a further proof that\nWolfe was getting bored with this endless series and just wanted to stir\nthings up a bit before skedadling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh dear. This really does hit the mark. Not that there was *much* of\nScylla in there, of course, and most of the time it really was Oreb." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "5. The Horn/Silk/Horn question has been discussed enough already. All\nI\nwant to add is that I found the final revelation contrived and\nunconvincing, a bit like the final twist to a horror movie, there\nbecause there always is a final twist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed here too, and much too Hollywood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Disagreed, sorry - I found it convincing, satisfying, and a worthy\nresolution to the question of the protagonist's identity. It didn't\nfeel bolted on at all. Now if it had been that short story about\nthe house thinking the woman who lived in it was a witch, then I\nwould agree with you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "6. Can anyone explain why Merryn should be Severian's sister. There\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I had hoped for much more here too. the meeting seems not only\nperfunctory but mean-spirited wrt Merryn. Merryn counted for a lot more\nin the encounter with the Cumae and we had legitimate hopes for more\nfrom her.\n\nRetort to those who object to: Right Bro, I agree, statements: Adam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Allan\"!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lloyd is a pretty new poster, this is a good post. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It took me about three days to parse that sentence, but I agree too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do agree with most\nof it. And I can use some help in an adversarial position." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had definitely hoped for some new light to be cast on the story\nor characters of the New Sun - else why bother with them? The fact\nof the ship being the Samru, Jahlee being Krait's mother, Severian\nbeing the boy Horn et al meet on Urth - they remind me of something,\nand I worked out what it was. They remind me of some of the idler\nspeculations there have been on this list. Turning a little cranky\nmyself for a moment (and you always risk that with a bear), I feel\nlucky that Blue and Green *aren't* St Anne and St Croix.\n\nSpectacled Bear." } ] } ] }