{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1168", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1168, "subject": "RTTW spoilers, the Silken tongue", "messages": 6, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-02-14T21:50:11+00:00", "last": "2001-02-16T10:24:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "2001-02-14T21:50:11+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) RTTW spoilers, the Silken tongue", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat and Adam go on thusly:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 2/13/01 8:05 PM, Kevin J. Maroney at kmaroney at ungames.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To me, the giveaway that there's a huge amount of Silk in \"the protagonist\"\nfrom the moment that Horn moves into his body is the amount of minutiae\nthat he displays about the religion of Pas and the Children while on the\n_Whorl_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Indeed; and not only his knowledge, but the sententiousness with which he\ndispenses it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I know the conversation about \"what do you call it when you read the future\nfrom the flight of birds?\" is with Pig, and I believe he does a full\nexegesis of an excerpt from the Chrasmological Writings before the scene\nMichael discusses. The Chrasmomancy in particular strikes me as being\nunmistakably Silk; in fact, while reading the novel I felt it was somewhat\nout of character for Horn to be so Silkian. I should know better.....\n\nAnyway, refresh my memory. Does the protagonist indulge in Chrasmomancy\nbefore he gives his eye to Pig? If so, I'd say that's strong evidence that\nhe's largely Silk from the moment they merge." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He does, in Chapter 12, with Olivine, an exegesis that takes several pages.\nVery Silkian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But you GUYS! HEY! Your sense of SILK is from the BOOK written by HORN\nand NETTLE! Crikies! There was even a little cliffhanger between volumes\n1 and 2 of TBOTLS where it was established that lil' Horn could mimic\nSilk--and that was years before he invested the energy of writing the book.\n\nYou don't know Silk (none of us do!), you know litSilk.\n\nAnybody, take some character you know something about, and now act like\nthat character. Like any trekkie can do \"Kirk,\" or \"Spock.\" People can do\n\"Kramer\" or \"Elaine\" or \"Numan.\" Or \"Frank N. Furter\" or \"Magenta.\" Or\n\"Elvis.\"\n\nGot that part, okay: now on to the next part.\n\nImagine that the biggest Elvis fan in the world suddenly found himself\ntransported into the nearly dead body (\"whoa, that was a close one!\") of\nElvis himself. Do you think he couldn't fake being Elvis? Crank it up a\nnotch: make that fan the guy who wrote all of Elvis's songs, and taught him\nhow to move and sing--the guy who created the Elvis that everybody else saw\nand heard.\n\nThis has been an attempt to keep \"what we know and how we know it\" grounded\nin the text. Keep track of the frames.\n\n=mantis=\n\nSirius Fiction\nCatalog and errata sheet at http://www.sirius.com/~mantis/\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2001-02-15T11:12:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) RTTW spoilers, the Silken tongue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:50 PM 2/14/01 -0800, Mantis wrote:\nImagine that the biggest Elvis fan in the world suddenly found himself\ntransported into the nearly dead body (\"whoa, that was a close one!\") of\nElvis himself. Do you think he couldn't fake being Elvis? Crank it up a\nnotch: make that fan the guy who wrote all of Elvis's songs, and taught him\nhow to move and sing--the guy who created the Elvis that everybody else saw\nand heard." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course he could. But if he doesn't know he's been transported into\nElvis's body, why would he lapse into acting like Elvis for an extended\ntime during a period when he's convinced that Elvis is alive *somewhere\nelse*, and desparately wants people to help him find Elvis?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Kevin Maroney | Unplugged Games \n kmaroney at ungames.com | (212) 777-1190\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-02-15T10:44:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) RTTW spoilers, the Silken tongue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 2/15/01 5:50 AM, Michael Andre-Driussi at mantis at sirius.com wrote:\nBut you GUYS! HEY! Your sense of SILK is from the BOOK written by HORN\nand NETTLE! Crikies! There was even a little cliffhanger between volumes\n1 and 2 of TBOTLS where it was established that lil' Horn could mimic\nSilk--and that was years before he invested the energy of writing the book.\n\nYou don't know Silk (none of us do!), you know litSilk.\n\nAnybody, take some character you know something about, and now act like\nthat character. Like any trekkie can do \"Kirk,\" or \"Spock.\" People can do\n\"Kramer\" or \"Elaine\" or \"Numan.\" Or \"Frank N. Furter\" or \"Magenta.\" Or\n\"Elvis.\"\n\nGot that part, okay: now on to the next part.\n\nImagine that the biggest Elvis fan in the world suddenly found himself\ntransported into the nearly dead body (\"whoa, that was a close one!\") of\nElvis himself. Do you think he couldn't fake being Elvis? Crank it up a\nnotch: make that fan the guy who wrote all of Elvis's songs, and taught him\nhow to move and sing--the guy who created the Elvis that everybody else saw\nand heard." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No doubt Horn could impersonate Silk's manner of speaking. But why would he\nwant to do so consistently? He doesn't know, or he denies, he's in Silk's\nbody. He is aware that everybody thinks he's Silk, and wants to convince\nthem he's not. It makes no sense that he would then go around acting like\nSilk. In any case, it's not just his manner of speaking, it's his\ncharacter. The Horn of the journey to Pajarocu is not inclined to dispense\nwisdom at the drop of a hat, as the \"Horn\" on the Whorl is.\n\nAs for the distinction between Silk and litSilk, it's true we don't know the\n\"real Silk,\" only litSilk. But we also know the litHorn of the trip to\nPajarocu. And the \"Horn\" of the Whorl resembles litSilk much more closely\nthan litHorn.\n\n(I'll be writing a longer post replying to your earlier questions, but I\nwanted to answer this right away.)\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "2001-02-15T10:18:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) RTTW spoilers, the Silken tongue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Kevin Maroney quoted and wrote:\nAt 09:50 PM 2/14/01 -0800, Mantis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Imagine that the biggest Elvis fan in the world suddenly found himself\ntransported into the nearly dead body (\"whoa, that was a close one!\") of\nElvis himself. Do you think he couldn't fake being Elvis? Crank it up a\nnotch: make that fan the guy who wrote all of Elvis's songs, and taught him\nhow to move and sing--the guy who created the Elvis that everybody else saw\nand heard." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course he could. But if he doesn't know he's been transported into\nElvis's body, why would he lapse into acting like Elvis for an extended\ntime during a period when he's convinced that Elvis is alive *somewhere\nelse*, and desparately wants people to help him find Elvis?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, now we're getting somewhere!\n\nThe narrator must know that he isn't \"Silk\" (whether this is \"oldSilk\" or\n\"mainframeSilk\" or \"litSilk,\" or some combination thereof, doesn't matter\nat the moment) but he must have some inkling that the Silk-he-is-not exists\nsomewhere else (mainframe, for example, the place where the dead folk go).\n\nI think that the narrator knows he is in Silk's body, but still this is\nsomething that is constantly being grappled with internally, as well as\nexternally, since everybody he meets assumes that he is Silk. He acts like\nSilk for at least two broad reasons: first, because everybody he meets\nexpects him to be Silk (and the first people have only known Silk, not\nlitSilk); second, because he has always wanted to be more like Silk himself\n(fanboy, hellooo!).\n\nNow, when the narrator strongly suspects that there is a Silk in Pig,\nobviously (according to the reasoning above) he would get very excited.\nMust get that Silk! But judging by the results, which happen before the\nfirst word of TBOTSS is written, the Silk he got wasn't the Silk he was\nlooking for.\n\nStill--the fact that a Silk was floating around incognito in the body of\nPig means that it is quite possible that somewhere else the Silk he is\nlooking for has downloaded into somebody else. The old wine in a new\nbottle.\n\nNot to erase the delusional/Quixotic angle, since I enjoy a multiple\nlayering, but just to outline the rational angle.\n\nNote that one implication of what I'm saying is this: a series of\ninterrupted histories. Horn knows nothing of what has happened on the\nWhorl since he left as a boy; Horn/Silk(body) knows nothing of what has\nhappened on the Whorl since Horn left as a boy (otherwise he would know\nabout Silk's failure as ruler of Viron, etc.); post eye operation\nSilk/Horn/Silk knows nothing of what has happened on the Whorl since the\nscan was taken in TBOTLS (otherwise he would know all about Hyacinth's\ndeath).\n\nThus there is a big grey area centered on post-Exodus time in the Whorl.\nGood thing: then the character can venture forth into the Whorl and try to\nfind out what happened, rather than just say \"Oh drat!\" and commit suicide\n(again?).\n\n=mantis=\n\nSirius Fiction\nCatalog and errata sheet at http://www.sirius.com/~mantis/\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2001-02-15T17:02:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) RTTW spoilers, the Silken tongue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:18 AM 2/15/01 -0800, Mantis wrote:\nThe narrator must know that he isn't \"Silk\" (whether this is \"oldSilk\" or\n\"mainframeSilk\" or \"litSilk,\" or some combination thereof, doesn't matter\nat the moment) but he must have some inkling that the Silk-he-is-not exists\nsomewhere else (mainframe, for example, the place where the dead folk go)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Mucor told him so. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that the narrator knows he is in Silk's body, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think he doesn't, not for a very long time. The conversation between Pig\nand the shopkeeper underscores that. (Assuming it's a reliable\nreconstruction, and that Pig and the shopkeeper understand the protagonist,\nwhich of course they don't....) \n\nDo you have any evidence to indicate that, at the time he lectures to\nOlivine, \"the narrator\" had decided/realized/admitted to himself that he\nwas in Silk's body? " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Kevin Maroney | Unplugged Games \n kmaroney at ungames.com | (212) 777-1190\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "2001-02-16T10:24:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) RTTW spoilers, the Silken tongue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Kevin quoted and wrote:\nThe narrator must know that he isn't \"Silk\" (whether this is \"oldSilk\" or\n\"mainframeSilk\" or \"litSilk,\" or some combination thereof, doesn't matter\nat the moment) but he must have some inkling that the Silk-he-is-not exists\nsomewhere else (mainframe, for example, the place where the dead folk go)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. Mucor told him so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that the narrator knows he is in Silk's body," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think he doesn't, not for a very long time. The conversation between Pig\nand the shopkeeper underscores that. (Assuming it's a reliable\nreconstruction, and that Pig and the shopkeeper understand the protagonist,\nwhich of course they don't....)\n\nDo you have any evidence to indicate that, at the time he lectures to\nOlivine, \"the narrator\" had decided/realized/admitted to himself that he\nwas in Silk's body?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "None, alas! Mostly the result of impressions over the previous two books,\nimpressions which seemed confirmed by a first reading of RTTW. I'll try to\ntake notes on the next reading!\n\n=mantis=\n\nSirius Fiction\nCatalog and errata sheet at http://www.sirius.com/~mantis/\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }