{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1173", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1173, "subject": "Finally finished RTW ", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2001-02-16T20:33:36+00:00", "last": "2001-02-17T09:05:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Endymion9", "address": "endymion9 at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2001-02-16T20:33:36+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Finally finished RTW ", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Bob Musser\" wrote:\nI think the carnage which follows Silk around is one of the\nfrightening aspects of his goodness. He doesn't instigate it; it\nflows from the responses of those who fear him. I'm starting to re-\nread the series and haven't revisited Green as yet, so I'm not sure if\nthe same theory can be applied to Horn's actions there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reminded me of the crusades and the Spanish Inquisition. Many leaders have\nthought they were warring on others \"in the name of God.\" Also, reminds me\nof a skit on the old tv show \"Laugh-In\" where it showed an American,\nEnglishman, Frenchman, German, Italian, and Japanese soldier each in his\nfoxhole. Each said \"And we will prevail because God is on our side.\" or\nsomething similar. I think the punchline was each was struck by lightening\nbut I can't clearly remember .\n\n\nOk. I'm always better at asking questions than answering them in this group\nso I'll begin my list now.\n\n1. Why did Nettle chose to return to the Whorl? Especially since if I\nunderstood the ending, Horn's personality disappeared or was totally\nabsorbed into Silk's. His memories remained, I'm sure but his personality\ndied. Or course I know Nettle had a love for Silk like Horn did, so was\nthis the reason she returned with him?\n\nAs I continue to read other's posts (catching up) I agree with mantis\nsuggestion that it wa not safe for Nettle to say on Blue as she knows the\ninhuma secret.\n\n2. Revelations. Call me dense but I never understood that Maytera Mint was\nnot a chem. I thought every Maytera was a chem. So it was just coincidence\nthat Maytera Rose and Maytera Marble were? Also, thinking of Mint made me\nrealize that Wolfe reused a similar pattern in the *good* men of the Whorl.\nSilk\nHorn\nBison\nHound\nAuk\nThey all loved their women deeply and would sacrifice their ideals and\nprinciples for those women.\n\n3. Why did the corn farmer attack Horn, even after he said he was leaving?\nWhy give him the corn just to kill him? When Wolfe writes passages like\nthese I feel so dense, like I'm the only one clueless as to what is going on\n.\n\n4. Considering why Silk returned to the Whorl and decided to leave\nBlue/Green after the godling received a report of Blue/Green's condition\nfrom Horn. Someone earlier asked if the colonists were going to suceed in\ncolonizing Blue/Green or would the inhuma wipe them out? It seems to me\nthat Silk has decided to condemn the Blue/Green colonists to death. It's\nnot clear if the Whorl had the resources to help them win anyway with all\nthe embreyos being misused before they got to Blue/Green. If this is so,\nwhy wouldn't Silk/Horn take his sons with him back to the Whorl also?\n\n5. I saw no evidence that the Whorl had used resources from Blue/Green\nreturning landers to resupply the ship. The ship seemed in bad shape in\nExile before we saw it even further run down in RTW. How do the gods expect\ntheir worshippers to survive for very long if they are just travelling\nwithout a specific destination as was suggested in another post?\n\n6. Just saw a mention of Fava. Was Fava's spirit residing in Mora or was\nit merely Mora creating a memory of Fava like Hoof did of Hide (or vice\nversa if I'm remembering it backwards).\n\n7. There has been mention of why Silk would be interested in Seawrack. As\nwas discussed in some of the \"Lily\" posts earlier I still wonder if it was\nKypris more than Hyacinth that Silk was \"in love\" with. Someone mentioned\nSeawrack possibly containing a god. Kypris? Is this Silk continuing his\nlove affair with Kypris?\n\n8. I'm still confused about the Neighbors. Where are they now? Why are\nthe inhuma not a threat to them now? Why did they want a promise that they\ncould come and go on Blue? They seem to have introduced inhuma to the\nWhorl, possibly in a preemptive attack on invaders?\n\nJust read this" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "dd at adobe.com (David DiGiacomo) wrote:\nThe Neighbors of Green sent their slave inhumi to prey on the Neighbors of\nBlue. Once that source of blood was exhausted, the inhumi turned on the\nNeighbors of Green, ultimately destroying their civilization.\n\nIt would not be very satisfying if these very bad Neighbors could escape\nthe consequences of their evil through astral travel. It makes more sense\nto me that they were damned and died in the hell of Green. Like the\npeople of Viron, they seem to have neglected to bring their gods with\nthem, and suffered greatly as a result.\n\nOn the other hand, the Neighbors on Blue would have had the assistance of\ntheir gods in developing astral travel. Perhaps they \"went away\" in order\nto avoid having to kill all the inhumi." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where did they \"go away\"?\n\n9. It seems to be the Silk personality that hates and wants to destroy\ninhumi vs. Horn's trying to live in peace with them. Why does Silk hate the\ninhumi? Is this from Pas's knowledge of them?\n\nWhew ", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2001-02-17T01:18:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Finally finished RTW ", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm going to comment on one of your questions and try to answer \nanother. I am not sure if some of the others can be answered in any \ndefinite way; it will be interesting to see what other responses you \nget." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 8:33 PM -0600 2/16/01, Endymion9 wrote:\n2. Revelations. Call me dense but I never understood that Maytera Mint was\nnot a chem. I thought every Maytera was a chem. So it was just coincidence\nthat Maytera Rose and Maytera Marble were? Also, thinking of Mint made me\nrealize that Wolfe reused a similar pattern in the *good* men of the Whorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I won't call you dense, but you weren't paying as much attention as \nyou might have been. Maytera Marble was the only sybil of the three \nwho was a chem, and she may have been the only chem sybil in all of \nViron.\n\nIn the city of Viron, beings with the names of minerals or \nmineral-derived products are chems. Those with the names of plants or \nplant-derived products are bio women and those with the names of \nanimals or animal-derived products are bio men. (There is no naming \ndistinction between male and female chems, apparently. I'd call this \nBio chauvinism on the part of Pas--or whoever came up with the naming \nconventions.) Maytera Rose was very old and sick and was only kept \nalive by means of the many prosthetic parts that had been surgically \nimplanted in her body. When even these prostheses could no longer \nkeep Rose alive, Maytera Marble claimed some of them as spare parts. \nIn Wolfe's universe, robot and human parts are pretty much \ninterchangeable. That robot parts could be used as prosthetic parts \nfor humans and vice-versa is less silly than the idea that a robot \n(Jonas, in TNotNS) could be repaired with human flesh, but it still \nputs something of a strain on the reader's credulity (mine, at least)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. Why did the corn farmer attack Horn, even after he said he was leaving?\nWhy give him the corn just to kill him? When Wolfe writes passages like\nthese I feel so dense, like I'm the only one clueless as to what is going on\n." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The farmer's motivation certainly isn't crystal clear to me either, \nbut my opinion is that he wouldn't have attacked Horn if Horn had \njust left without confronting him when the farmer first told Horn to \nleave.\n\nTo put it bluntly, Horn pissed the farmer off. The farmer seems to \nhave been a bully; perhaps he thought Horn would run or beg for \nmercy. But instead Horn showed the farmer that he was not afraid of \nhim. Horn even told the farmer that he could beat him with a rotten \nstick and then chastised him for threatening a man who was (the \nfarmer thought, at least) old and weak. The farmer was probably \nfrightened when he saw Horn was not afraid of him and ashamed when \nHorn chastised him. Both these emotions tend to lead to anger and the \nfarmer struck out at Horn in anger when he turned his back on him to \nleave. His anger won out over his fear when he could no longer see \nHorn's (Silk's) face, perhaps.\n\nAnother possibility that does not exclude the one above is that the \nfarmer recognized that this person who said his name was Horn looked \njust like Silk or at least had suspicions along those lines. He may \nhave wondered what Silk was up too and whether he was insane. When \nthe farmer threatened Horn and Horn responded without the fear the \nfarmer expected, this may have given the farmer more reason to think \nsomething was wrong with Horn's mind.\n\nIt is understandable that the farmer might want to drive off an \nunpredictable looney and might attack one that seemed dangerous.\n\nThat's my two cents, anyway.\n\nWilliam Ansley\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Endymion9", "address": "endymion9 at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2001-02-17T09:05:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Finally finished RTW ", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "William. Thanks for clearing up the Rose, Marble, Mint confusion for me.\nWhen I first was reading NotLS I was struggling to figure out what maytera\nvs. sybil vs. all sorts of strange words (to me) meant and I haven't had the\nopportunity to reread yet. So even though years later here I've learned a\nlittle about the naming conventions just wasn't enough to clear up that\ninitial confusion. But your explanation was very clear!\n\nSince sleeping on it I've come up with another question for the group.\n\nI believe Horn/Silk invited Gryfalcon to give his family status in New Viron\nand to protect against what he though was going to be a small force of\ninhumi, but did he secretly want to help Capsicum get revenge on Gryfalcon?\n\n\nDennis/Endy\nhttp://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }