{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1175", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1175, "subject": "Death of Jahlee", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2001-02-17T13:02:51+00:00", "last": "2001-02-19T09:37:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2001-02-17T13:02:51+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Death of Jahlee", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:24 PM 2/11/2001 -0800, you wrote:\nThe protagonist spends a lot of time treating inhumi as people and trying \nto see their point of view, even to the point of wanting to learn about \ntheir reproductive habits. He must be the most sympathetic human the \ninhumi have encountered. Then Jahlee tries to kill Nettle, and Juganu \nleads a war party against the protagonist, who doesn't hesitate to kill \nthem in either case (although he seems to have some regret about Jahlee).\n\nI can't figure out whether these incidents represent the inhumi not being \nable to rise above their nature, or whether they are a consequence of \ntheir close imitation of humans. Perhaps they imitate humans in war as in \nlove?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Jahlee is in love with Horn. Nettle is her rival. She realizes \nthis when face to face with Nettle at last. Horn defends his wife, and \n\"goes too far.\" But that's reality.\n I believe that among the broad subtexts of the series is that Silk \nis like Jesus and Horn is a bit like Paul. Humans are the Jews, and the \ninhumi are the barbarians to whom Paul was sent. Yep, they are barbarians, \nbut the good news of human blood can make them into something else. The \nblood of Christ transforms us. The body and blood of Silk are transforming \nHorn. Human blood is transforming the inhumi. But you don't stop being a \nbarbarian overnight, especially when the \"Jews\" are really no better than \nthe \"barbarians,\" a point that both Paul and Horn continually make. Both \nmust grow in \"Silk-likeness.\" But it is \"to the Jew first, and also to the \nGreek\" (Romans, chapter 1). Humans must be transformed so that the inhumi \ncan be.\n So, let's not be surprised if Jahlee's \"sanctification\" is \nimperfect. Wolfe's characters are on the road to being better people, but \nthey are never perfect!\n But isn't there some awesome beauty in Jahlee's death? Dying in \nNettle's forgiving arms? Wanting to be human so much that she hates her \npeople and reveals the secret? Isn't this a good death, with penitence, \nforgiveness, and hope for a happy afterlife?\n Read this section again, Alga. I thought it was both sad and \nbeautiful. It made me care for Jahlee more than ever. I think this \nbittersweet end makes Jahlee more human, and more loveable, than if she had \njust turned into a good person and lived happily ever after.\n\nPatera Nutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Meyers", "address": "jeffmeyers at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-02-17T22:02:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Death of Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Jordan wrote:\nI believe that among the broad subtexts of the series is that Silk\nis like Jesus and Horn is a bit like Paul. Humans are the Jews, and the\ninhumi are the barbarians to whom Paul was sent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ". . ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " So, let's not be surprised if Jahlee's \"sanctification\" is\nimperfect. Wolfe's characters are on the road to being better people, but\nthey are never perfect!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess I don't see how the inhumi as a whole are \"on the road to being\nbetter people.\" If the inhumi are Gentiles, why are so few of them\n(possibly Krait and Jahle alone; would you also say Fava?) \"converted.\" If\nthe NT typology is to make some sense, I guess I would expect more\n\"conversions\" among the \"Gentiles.\" Maybe I'm pressing it too much. But it\nis a major feature of NT history that many Gentiles come into the kingdom.\nThe inhumi, however, seem intractable. But maybe you're seeing these\n\"conversions\" as typical. But I just can't help thinking that most, if not\nall of the inhumi on Blue turn on Horn/silk in the attack at the wedding.\nOf course, the last words of the book (\"Good fishing!\") seem to indicate a\nfurther missionary effort to other \"Gentiles\" undertaken by the Bride\n(Nettle), the Holy Spirit (Oreb), and a representative of the old world (the\nold sybl).\n\nPatera Bunny\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2001-02-19T09:37:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Death of Jahlee", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:02 PM 2/17/2001 -0600, Patera Bad Bunny wrote:\nJames Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe that among the broad subtexts of the series is that Silk\nis like Jesus and Horn is a bit like Paul. Humans are the Jews, and the\ninhumi are the barbarians to whom Paul was sent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ". . ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " So, let's not be surprised if Jahlee's \"sanctification\" is\nimperfect. Wolfe's characters are on the road to being better people, but\nthey are never perfect!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess I don't see how the inhumi as a whole are \"on the road to being\nbetter people.\" If the inhumi are Gentiles, why are so few of them\n(possibly Krait and Jahle alone; would you also say Fava?) \"converted.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I don't see the humans \"on the whole\" becoming better people \neither. I meant Wolfe's characters.\n But why not more inhumi? Well, I don't think the book of Acts or \nPaul's history is the main grid of the trilogy. It looks to me more like a \nChristianized Odyssey along with a medieval pilgrimage story (and I wonder \nif there is some specific crusade or pilgrimage narrative that Wolfe had in \nmind). I see the ripping out of eyes for others as a Pauline reference, as \nwell as the fact that Horn is the first to begin to see a \"mission to the \ninhumi.\" So, the \"multitudes of gentiles\" theme in Acts and the Epistles \nmay well be lacking. At the same time, however, it does appear that \nmultitudes of inhumi are wanting to become more human.\n The inhumi, however, are primarily our children. Like our \nchildren, they mirror us. Thus, Krait and Jahlee are Horn's children. Also, \nHorn does not like what he sees in Sinew precisely because Sinew mirrors \nHorn to himself. This is precisely what humans don't like about the \ninhumi-children: they mirror humanity to itself. That theme, I believe, is \nthe much larger and pervasive theme in the trilogy.\n Or so it seems to me today.\n\nPatera Nut.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }