{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1176", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1176, "subject": "Horn Lives", "messages": 6, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-02-17T13:11:24+00:00", "last": "2001-02-19T23:46:35+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2001-02-17T13:11:24+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Horn Lives", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI'm finally done with the book, and have not finished all the posts, but \nat this point I'm not at all convinced that Horn is gone and Silk lives. \nQuite the opposite. But I'm not completely sure. Let me make a case for \nthis reading, and you can respond.\n\tBecause I think all you guys are wrong.\n\tWe have to pay attention to who the narrator is. Hoof and Hide NEVER \nbelieved that \"Father\" was Horn. Neither did Remora. Now Remora CLAIMS that \nhe got the narrator finally to see the light and admit that he is Silk? \nReally? Are we supposed to believe this? People have been trying to get \nHorn to do this for over a year, but he knows fully who he is. But when \nthey keep it up, as he says himself, sometimes he just stops arguing. Are \nwe really supposed to take three pages of Remora's testimony and pit it \nagainst hundreds of pages of testimony from the narrator? Really?\n\tYes, Remora is a \"good guy,\" if definitely annoying. But he has his own \npreconceptions. I don't think he's lying, but I don't think he recognizes \nthe truth at all. He sees what he wants to see.\n\tSure, the kids who write the final chapters believe he is Silk. Of course \nthey do. And so does Remora. But there is no indication FROM THE NARRATOR \nthat he ever accepts this, is there?\n\tWhy don't they think he is Horn? Not just because he looks different, but \nbecause he manifests Silk's abilities, which are not Horn's. But (a) Horn \nhas always tried to mimic Silk, and that's part of it. And (b) we have \nHorn's personality in Silk's body. Thus, he manifests Silk's physical genes \nand gifts, becoming an outstanding leader. And he has some of Silk's \nmemories, since they are lodged in Silk's physical brain.\n\tThis construction fits perfectly, I submit, with the theology of the book. \nChristians live in Christ, in the body of Christ (both personal and \nchurchly), and receive the same Holy Spirit as Jesus received. So, Horn \nlives in Silk's body, and receives the same Oreb. And, feeding on Christ's \nbody eucharistically, Christians receive from Him. Similarly, Horn is \nreceiving things from Silk's body.\n\tBut Horn's personality as dead and obliterated? No way. It is Silk's \npersonality that is gone.\n\tNow, the narrator does say that he killed Hide and Hoof's father. But this \ncould mean several different things, such as that his actions on Green \nresulted in the death of his body. It does not have to mean that a reviving \nSilk drove out the remnants of Horn.\n\tAt the end, the astral body of Horn appears most like Silk. Well, as \nChristians mature they are supposed to become more Christlike. That is, \ntheir inner selves are supposed to conform to Christ. And in the astral \nsphere, what we see are the inner selves. I don't think that this Silk-like \nappearance of the astral body means any more than that. Similarly, the \nhuman appearance of the astral inhumi shows that they are becoming human in \ntheir inner persons.\n\tIt's Horn, folks. First, middle, and last. Horn all the way. Horn becoming \nmore Silk-like. Horn \"becoming conformed to Christ in the inner man\" as St. \nPaul puts it. But Horn. Nobody else.\n\tThere. That's the gauntlet.\n\nPatera Nutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2001-02-18T14:27:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Horn Lives", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nutria said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This construction fits perfectly, I submit, with the theology of the\nboo k. Christians live in Christ, in the body of Christ (both\npersonal and churchly), and receive the same Holy Spirit as Jesus\nreceived. So, Horn lives in Silk's body, and receives the same\nOreb. And, feeding on Christ's body eucharistically, Christians\nreceive from Him. Similarly, Horn is receiving things from Silk's\nbody." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with you that Oreb all along has strong aspects as a Holy\nSpirit figure. Given this, what do you think the significance of\nOreb's possession by Scylla is? This whole Scylla-in-Oreb thing is\nstrange. It is hinted at before RTTW, as members of the list\nsuggested, but it makes little enough sense that I sort of placed it\nin the category of \"why is Scylla emphasized when she hasn't had much\nrole in RTTW? Beats me.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-02-18T13:20:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Horn Lives", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure how I came to be the Official Defender of Silkhorn's Silkiness.\nBut since nobody else has yet picked up the gauntlet you've thrown down, I\nguess it's up to me.\n\nMy first reaction to your post is that you're trashing the most moving scene\nin the book just to save a grotesque allegory. Apart from that, some\ncomments on specific points." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 2/17/01 1:11 PM, James Jordan at jbjordan at gnt.net wrote:\nAre \nwe really supposed to take three pages of Remora's testimony and pit it\nagainst hundreds of pages of testimony from the narrator? Really?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And there are hundreds of pages of testimony from Weer that he's not dead,\nand dozens of pages from the prisoner in \"V. R. T.\" that he's Marsch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, Remora is a \"good guy,\" if definitely annoying. But he has his own\npreconceptions. I don't think he's lying, but I don't think he recognizes\nthe truth at all. He sees what he wants to see." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's no evidence at all that Remora's report of his interview with Silk\nwas distorted by his preconceptions. And if nothing took place during this\ninterview, if \"Horn\" just nodded at the end to shut Remora up as you suggest\n(or didn't nod at all), then why does \"Horn\" leave immediately afterwards,\nfor ever, without seeing his sons again?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, the kids who write the final chapters believe he is Silk. Of course\nthey do. And so does Remora. But there is no indication FROM THE NARRATOR\nthat he ever accepts this, is there?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, there is: at the end of Chapter 20, and in Silk's words to Daisy in the\nAfterword. Your reasons for discounting these don't hold up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why don't they think he is Horn? Not just because he looks different, but\nbecause he manifests Silk's abilities, which are not Horn's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And he doesn't talk like Horn, and he doesn't act like Horn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But (a) Horn \nhas always tried to mimic Silk, and that's part of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't buy this idea that Horn mimics Silk when mantis said it, and I\ndon't buy it now. Horn deeply admires Silk, and has a strong sense of his\nown unworthiness. I don't think that Horn would presume to go around\ntalking like Silk. What Horn says is that he \"tried to model [him]self on\nhim,\" (407) which is something quite different. (And to anticipate your\nrejoinder, I'm aware that Horn's imitating Silk would fit your allegory,\nsince Christians are supposed to imitate Christ. But I don't believe Wolfe\nis the sort of writer who violates characters' psychology for the sake of\nallegory.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This construction fits perfectly, I submit, with the theology of the book.\nChristians live in Christ, in the body of Christ (both personal and\nchurchly), and receive the same Holy Spirit as Jesus received. So, Horn\nlives in Silk's body, and receives the same Oreb. And, feeding on Christ's\nbody eucharistically, Christians receive from Him. Similarly, Horn is\nreceiving things from Silk's body.\nBut Horn's personality as dead and obliterated? No way. It is Silk's\npersonality that is gone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Silk's body is the Church, and Silk's personality is gone from his body,\ndoes that mean that Christ's spirit has vanished from the Church?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now, the narrator does say that he killed Hide and Hoof's father. But this\ncould mean several different things, such as that his actions on Green\nresulted in the death of his body." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't imagine Horn's saying those words, in the context in which they\nappear, with that meaning. \"I'm not going to say goodbye to my sons, who I\nwill never see again, because my actions caused the death of my physical\nbody on Green\"???" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the end, the astral body of Horn appears most like Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not just \"most like Silk.\" He no longer looks like Horn at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, as \nChristians mature they are supposed to become more Christlike. That is,\ntheir inner selves are supposed to conform to Christ. And in the astral\nsphere, what we see are the inner selves. I don't think that this Silk-like\nappearance of the astral body means any more than that. Similarly, the\nhuman appearance of the astral inhumi shows that they are becoming human in\ntheir inner persons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's no evidence that the appearance of people's astral selves changes as\ntheir character changes. The inhumi's astral selves appear human, not\nbecause the inhumi are becoming more human, but because their spirits are\nhuman, taken from humans.\n\nBeyond this, I refer you to my earlier posts on the narrator's identity, in\nwhich I list in exhaustive (and perhaps exhausting) detail the evidence for\nthe presence, at least, of Silk's spirit in Silkhorn on the Whorl, and a\nfortiori after returning to Blue.\n\nTwo final questions for you:\n\n1) Why, according to your reading, does Horn never acknowledge that he is in\nSilk's body?\n\n2) If the scene with Remora is meaningless, why does Wolfe include it at\nall? And why does he place it where he does, as the last chapter before the\nAfterword?\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2001-02-19T09:23:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Horn Lives", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:27 PM 2/18/2001 -0500, ADG wrote:\nI agree with you that Oreb all along has strong aspects as a Holy\nSpirit figure. Given this, what do you think the significance of\nOreb's possession by Scylla is? This whole Scylla-in-Oreb thing is\nstrange. It is hinted at before RTTW, as members of the list\nsuggested, but it makes little enough sense that I sort of placed it\nin the category of \"why is Scylla emphasized when she hasn't had much\nrole in RTTW? Beats me.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I don't know. I have the impression that Wolfe writes these books \nin layers, adding layer after layer of additional stories until we get a \nwhole tapestry. We've got the Odyssey here, but also a medieval pilgrimage \nto the holy land to get relics with adventures along the way. And also \noccasional reference to St. Paul, it seems (e.g., tearing out eyes to give \nto others). We've got Oreb as Holy Spirit, but also then layered over that, \nOreb as Computer-Menarche-Scylla.\n I guess the question is: Are all these layers supposed to fit \ntogether perfectly somehow, or are they just different layers?\n\nPatera Nutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2001-02-19T10:38:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Horn Lives", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:20 PM 2/18/2001 -0600, you wrote:\nI'm not sure how I came to be the Official Defender of Silkhorn's Silkiness.\nBut since nobody else has yet picked up the gauntlet you've thrown down, I\nguess it's up to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Thanks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My first reaction to your post is that you're trashing the most moving scene\nin the book just to save a grotesque allegory. Apart from that, some\ncomments on specific points." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " For me the death of Jahlee was the most moving part of the book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And there are hundreds of pages of testimony from Weer that he's not dead,\nand dozens of pages from the prisoner in \"V. R. T.\" that he's Marsch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " True. I don't know that Wolfe is doing all that AGAIN, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's no evidence at all that Remora's report of his interview with Silk\nwas distorted by his preconceptions. And if nothing took place during this\ninterview, if \"Horn\" just nodded at the end to shut Remora up as you suggest\n(or didn't nod at all), then why does \"Horn\" leave immediately afterwards,\nfor ever, without seeing his sons again?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Good question." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure, the kids who write the final chapters believe he is Silk. Of course\nthey do. And so does Remora. But there is no indication FROM THE NARRATOR\nthat he ever accepts this, is there?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, there is: at the end of Chapter 20, and in Silk's words to Daisy in the\nAfterword. Your reasons for discounting these don't hold up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Yes, this is a problem for the Horn Lives viewpoint. But is Silk \nthe kind of man who cannot face saying farewell to people he has \nunwittingly wronged? Okay, we can distinguish between Book Silk and Real \nSilk, and say that Book Silk would never act this way, while Real Silk \nmight. But I'm not convinced this is enough. Wolfe is tricky, and I'm still \ninclined to think that what Narr. tells Daisy is cryptic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's no evidence that the appearance of people's astral selves changes as\ntheir character changes. The inhumi's astral selves appear human, not\nbecause the inhumi are becoming more human, but because their spirits are\nhuman, taken from humans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " You may be right. I'll have to reinvestigate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Two final questions for you:\n\n1) Why, according to your reading, does Horn never acknowledge that he is in\nSilk's body?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Well, on my reading he does, at the end. But I recall a scene \nwhere he looks at his arm to see a scar that was present on Silk's body, \nand does not see it, thereby convincing himself that he is not in Silk's \nbody. (Anybody else recall this?)\n But the main reason, I think (today) is this: He wants to bring \nSilk back. The Neighbor told him that he was going to enter the body of a \nman whose spirit was departing. That means Silk is dead, and the proof is \nthat Horn is in Silk's body. Horn does not want to face this fact." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) If the scene with Remora is meaningless, why does Wolfe include it at\nall? And why does he place it where he does, as the last chapter before the\nAfterword?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Oh, I don't think it's meaningless. But I'm not sure the \ncharacters understand what they report, as is often the case in Wolfe.\n We should start a separate string on this, I guess, but consider \nthe citation from the Chras. Writings:\n\nThough trodden beneath the shepherd's heel,\nThe wild hyacinth blooms on the ground. (p. 408)\n\n Now, given how we have seen Silk and Horn (Silkhorn, Hornsilk, \nwhatever) interpret the CW in other parts of the seven books, how should we \ninterpret this? Surely NOT as some cryptic reference to the person of \nHyacinth! Let me give it a Silklike try:\n \"Now, the shepherd is the master, who rules the land. Perhaps he \nis the Outsider, or one of his agents. Because of our waywardness, there \nare times when He must crush the blossoms in His garden; but not unto total \ndestruction. Rather, though they are trodden down, they will rise again. Do \nnot the Chrasmological Writings themselves say that a great flood must come \nbefore a new sun can be born to give life to the garden of the whorl? I \nwonder if this might refer to an event yet to come to the Red Sun Whorl \nthat we have visited....\n \"A hyacinth is a flower of many possible colors, yet it seems we \nusually associate it with purple. As Oreb is black because of the black \nspaces of the Outsider's whorl, perhaps the hyacinth is also a picture of \nthe work of the Outsider. His people, those who follow Him, will come to \nlife again after those necessary times of judgment that He brings upon them.\"\n Bla bla blah... Well, I guess this could refer to Silk's coming to \nlife again after being trodden down. I guess that's what Remora thought. \nBut perhaps it means that wicked New Viron can come to life again, and this \nis why \"he wept.\"\n\n Well, I'm not settled in my understanding, but I still lean \nheavily toward the Horn Lives interpretation. As you rightly point out, \nit's the only view that makes sense to me in terms of the basic grid of the \nseven books. \"For Silk to live, Horn must die\" seems to me to be the \nOPPOSITE of everything the books are about. But, Wolfe can be tricky.\n\nPatera Nutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-02-19T23:46:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Horn Lives", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 2/19/01 10:38 AM, James Jordan at jbjordan at gnt.net wrote:\nAt 01:20 PM 2/18/2001 -0600, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My first reaction to your post is that you're trashing the most moving scene\nin the book just to save a grotesque allegory. Apart from that, some\ncomments on specific points." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me the death of Jahlee was the most moving part of the book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I also found that scene very powerful." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, this is a problem for the Horn Lives viewpoint. But is Silk\nthe kind of man who cannot face saying farewell to people he has\nunwittingly wronged? Okay, we can distinguish between Book Silk and Real\nSilk, and say that Book Silk would never act this way, while Real Silk\nmight. But I'm not convinced this is enough." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is a good point, and I admit I'm not sure why Silk is in such a hurry\nto be off. (I'll post further thoughts on this separately.) But in Silk,\nthis behavior is merely anomalous. In Horn, I would argue, it is\ninconceivable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "1) Why, according to your reading, does Horn never acknowledge that he is in\nSilk's body?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, on my reading he does, at the end. But I recall a scene\nwhere he looks at his arm to see a scar that was present on Silk's body,\nand does not see it, thereby convincing himself that he is not in Silk's\nbody. (Anybody else recall this?)\nBut the main reason, I think (today) is this: He wants to bring\nSilk back. The Neighbor told him that he was going to enter the body of a\nman whose spirit was departing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dying, not departing. The distinction is important here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That means Silk is dead, and the proof is\nthat Horn is in Silk's body. Horn does not want to face this fact." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You handled that better than I expected, I must admit. But for all Horn's\nadmiration of Silk, I don't think his unwillingness to admit Silk's death\nwould be enough. Remember, in Whorl \"Horn\" was constantly running into\npeople telling him he was Silk (in fact, after a while I began to feel Wolfe\nwas being too heavy-handed); and he knew he was in another body. It would\nrequire a huge emotional disturbance to keep him from drawing the obvious\nconclusion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2) If the scene with Remora is meaningless, why does Wolfe include it at\nall? And why does he place it where he does, as the last chapter before the\nAfterword?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, I don't think it's meaningless. But I'm not sure the\ncharacters understand what they report, as is often the case in Wolfe.\nWe should start a separate string on this, I guess, but consider\nthe citation from the Chras. Writings:\n\nThough trodden beneath the shepherd's heel,\nThe wild hyacinth blooms on the ground. (p. 408)\n\nNow, given how we have seen Silk and Horn (Silkhorn, Hornsilk,\nwhatever) interpret the CW in other parts of the seven books, how should we\ninterpret this? Surely NOT as some cryptic reference to the person of\nHyacinth!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why not? In Chap. 12 of RTTW, \"Horn\" interprets the passage from the CW as,\nin part, referring to his and Olivine's specifically." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let me give it a Silklike try:\n\"Now, the shepherd is the master, who rules the land. Perhaps he\nis the Outsider, or one of his agents. Because of our waywardness, there\nare times when He must crush the blossoms in His garden; but not unto total\ndestruction. Rather, though they are trodden down, they will rise again. Do\nnot the Chrasmological Writings themselves say that a great flood must come\nbefore a new sun can be born to give life to the garden of the whorl? I\nwonder if this might refer to an event yet to come to the Red Sun Whorl\nthat we have visited....\n\"A hyacinth is a flower of many possible colors, yet it seems we\nusually associate it with purple. As Oreb is black because of the black\nspaces of the Outsider's whorl, perhaps the hyacinth is also a picture of\nthe work of the Outsider. His people, those who follow Him, will come to\nlife again after those necessary times of judgment that He brings upon them.\"\nBla bla blah... Well, I guess this could refer to Silk's coming to\nlife again after being trodden down. I guess that's what Remora thought.\nBut perhaps it means that wicked New Viron can come to life again, and this\nis why \"he wept.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't know that wicked New Viron had died. (After his remarks on how\neven Silk could not make the town better, \"Horn\" surely doesn't think that\nGyrfalcon's death will make a permanent difference.) And your reading\ndoesn't account for \"Horn\" sense of doom before Remora brings the writing.\nAnd I still can't see Wolfe making the scene you describe the climax of the\nbook." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I'm not settled in my understanding, but I still lean\nheavily toward the Horn Lives interpretation. As you rightly point out,\nit's the only view that makes sense to me in terms of the basic grid of the\nseven books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And to me, \"Horn lives, Silk is gone\" renders the narrator's story\npointless. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"For Silk to live, Horn must die\" seems to me to be the\nOPPOSITE of everything the books are about." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not that Horn was sacrificed to save Silk. Horn died on Green, as\nThecla died in her cell. (If you read carefully the Neighbor's words to\nHorn, she never actually says that Horn's life will be saved.) But putting\nHorn's spirit into Silk's body, where it merged with Silk's spirit, she gave\nHorn a chance to posthumously fulfill his quest, as well as to see his wife\nagain." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But, Wolfe can be tricky." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }