{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1180", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1180, "subject": "RTTW spoilers, Delusional and/or Quixotic", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2001-02-17T15:54:11+00:00", "last": "2001-02-17T21:17:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "2001-02-17T15:54:11+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) RTTW spoilers, Delusional and/or Quixotic", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just talking to myself here, explaining two angles of the narrator, as I\nseem them.\n\n\"Delusional\" is the angle where 100% Silk is present in the narrator from\nthe transfer moment from Green to Whorl. The Horn content of the narrator\ncan be set at 0, at which point \"100% Delusional\": The \"mad man\" theory, if\nyou will--total validation of what Calde Mint sees, with no further\ncomplications. The narrator is Silk/is not Horn, and just needs time to\nadjust to this state. (* more on this, see below)\n\n\"Quixotic\" is the term I use for the angle that appears to be a quest to\nfind or become a person who only exists in a book. Don Quixote himself (50%\nDelusional? ) lives in a world created by a library of heroic romances;\nhis self-created persona and subsequent life and death is an approximation\nof the fictional made real (or made real again). Horn's initial situation\nis more analogous to this: imagine Spain is in deep trouble, and Cervantes\nis charged with bringing Don Quixote to rule Madrid, since everybody loves\nand respects Don Quixote and would happily submit to his rule (however much\nit might resemble the reign of \"Emperor Norton\").\n\nThe way I see it, these two angles can be exclusive (for example, 100%\nDelusional can have little use for Quixotic), and they can work together in\nsome combinations, but there are some combinations where they do not work\nso well. And unfortunately, all the other characters would likely see\n\"Quixotic\" as \"Delusional\" (as in the case of Don Quixote).\n\nPersonally, I can accept the reading that there was not spirit exchange\nbetween Pig and N, that it was just a friendly meeting to forstall the\ninevitable, but the build-up and the event itself seemed like something\nelse to me.\n\nThe appearance of Doctor Crane's ghost does not \"solve\" anything for me,\nsince I see Crane as being one of the primary authors of Calde Silk in\nTBOTLS, at least according to Horn (who has any idea what Crane means to\nSilk?), and since I tend to think that Horn is seeing this ghost (rather\nthan Silk alone), well then--it is another log for the Quixotic stack.\n\n* further refinement/muddling of \"Delusional\"--well obviously there are at\nleast two main flavors of Delusional here: Silk-Delusional (a Silk spirit\nwho says \"I'm not Silk,\" etc., the Lear-sized loonie seen by Calde Mint)\nand Horn-Delusional (a Horn spirit who says \"I'm not Silk,\" if and only if\nthere really =is= some Silk spirit in there; otherwise he is not\ndelusional!).\n\n=mantis=\n\nSirius Fiction\nCatalog and errata sheet at http://www.sirius.com/~mantis/\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2001-02-17T21:17:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) RTTW spoilers, Delusional and/or Quixotic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\n\nNice post, mantis.\n\nNote that there is also Nutria's reading: Horn isn't delusional, but\nhis family & Remora (our editors) are.\n\nI find the most convincing reading to be a mixture of the Quixotic and\nthe delusional: Horn and Silk are both present in the body from the\nmoment of the transfer from Green. Silk, however, is in a funk--while\nhe contributes to the actions of Silkhorn, at first he does not wish\nto acknowledge himself as still alive. Equally, Horn doesn't want to\nadmit to himself that he's \"dead,\" but certainly can't say \"I'm Silk\nnow\"--both because he's sane enough to know that he isn't the Silk\nthat New Viron needs, even if he is the real Silk in some sense. He's\nalso having a hard time admitting that Silk is in him wishing he were\ndead. The Long Sun narration makes it clear that the little suicide\nscene on top of the airship was traumatic for Horn. This is much\nworse.\n\nThe behavior ends up being very Silkish because both Horn (& the\nslowly emerging real Silk) view \"book Silk\" as a very good man. After\nall, thouhg Horn invented, to some extent, \"book Silk,\" where do we\nthink he got his idea of what a good man is?\n\nRemora doesn't drive Horn out as in an excorcism so much as force\nSilkhorn to acknowledge that by this point Horn has faded away--he can\ndie now, because he hasn't failed, really. Silk has become willing to\nlive by this point, but isn't willing to admit he's alive. Horn has\nbecome less and less essential, but cannot admit to himself that he is\ndead until Silk no longer needs him.\n\n\nSo, why, having become himself again, does Silk take off to return to\nthe whorl?\n\nAs I see it, Silk sees that the two problems facing the colonists are\nnot ones he can solve. p. 314 is the crucial point. First, Silk\nconsiders the government of New Viron. The _real Silk_, we know, gave\nup rulership in Viron once it became clear that he could not rule\nwithout forcing his will upon an unwiling populace. New Viron is in\nmuch worse state. \"Silk would pray, of course.\" If prayer and the\ninfluence of \"book Silk\" are all (hardly nothing, I would say) he can\ndo, he can do that as well from the Whorl, where he may really be\nneeded. Also, remember that at this point it is mostly Silk running\nthe show. Silk's home is the Whorl. He was willing to leave when it\nwas the order of Pas and the Outsider, but even then he turned back\nfor Hyacinth, and never left, though surely he had opportunities over\nthe years. He is a stranger on Blue.\n\nThe second problem is that of the inhumi, and again, it is the problem\nof evil. Indeed, despite his having discovered the humanity of the\ninhumi, Silkhorn is still himself capable of murdering his daughter\nwhen she attacks Nettle. He knows enough to doubt that there is a\n\"solution\" to this problem other than the one above--for men to be\nbetter than they are." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }