{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1187", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1187, "subject": "TBOTSS as fantasy", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2001-02-18T10:46:21+00:00", "last": "2001-02-21T08:56:29+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-02-18T10:46:21+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) TBOTSS as fantasy", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 2/14/01 6:08 AM, William Ansley at wansley at warwick.net wrote:\nI was also bothered by the impossibly large size of the (big)\ngodling. Wolfe should make up his mind, is he writing science fiction\nor isn't he?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think he isn't, actually. I think RTTW, and TBOTSS as a whole, are more\nfantasy than science fiction.\n\nAllan Lloyd already pointed out other fantasy-like aspects of the books: the\nNeighbors, who are more like helpful elves than sfnal aliens, have\nunexplained powers, and can be called up by a magic ring; and the astral\ntravel, which can be FTL. To which I would add the long-distance of Horn's\nspirit into Silk, without the rationalizations supplied in TBOTLS for\npossession via windows; and the inhumi's absorption of human's intelligence\nby drinking their blood.\n\nMore than this, the whole feel of the series, to me, is more like\npre-Tolkien fantasy, where one fantastic episode followed another with no\nattempt at rationalization or systematization [1], than like science\nfiction.\n\nIn other words, having written two series which were science fiction with a\nfantasy-like veneer, Wolfe has followed them up with a third series of\nfantasy with a science fiction veneer.\n\n--Adam\n\n[1] This is just a generalization; I'm sure there are exceptions. And it's\nnot mine, but I don't remember where I got it from.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2001-02-19T00:23:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) TBOTSS as fantasy", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:46 AM -0600 2/18/01, Adam Stephanides wrote:\non 2/14/01 6:08 AM, William Ansley at wansley at warwick.net wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I was also bothered by the impossibly large size of the (big)\n godling. Wolfe should make up his mind, is he writing science fiction\n or isn't he?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think he isn't, actually. I think RTTW, and TBOTSS as a whole, are more\nfantasy than science fiction.\n\nAllan Lloyd already pointed out other fantasy-like aspects of the books: the\nNeighbors, who are more like helpful elves than sfnal aliens, have\nunexplained powers, and can be called up by a magic ring; and the astral\ntravel, which can be FTL. To which I would add the long-distance of Horn's\nspirit into Silk, without the rationalizations supplied in TBOTLS for\npossession via windows; and the inhumi's absorption of human's intelligence\nby drinking their blood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In other words, having written two series which were science fiction with a\nfantasy-like veneer, Wolfe has followed them up with a third series of\nfantasy with a science fiction veneer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But they're all the same series! I assume you mean that NS/UNS* and \nLS are the SF disguised as fantasy and SS is the fantasy disguised as \nSF.\n\nNo one forced Wolfe to write LS as a series loosely (and, before SS, \nuncertainly) linked to NS and UNS. Likewise, he did not have to write \nSS, as a direct continuation of LS and a series that also makes the \nlink between LS/SS and NS/UNS all but certain. Wolfe choose to do so \nhowever. If he also choose to make the LS (and NS/UNS) SF and SS \nfantasy, I think he is being terribly unfair to his readers.\n\nI am certainly not alone in reading SS as SF. All the arguments and \ndiscussions about the orbital mechanics of the Blue/Green system \nbecome meaningless if SS is fantasy. Robert Borski's reason's for \nsaying he thinks the inhumi are lying when they say they can travel \nthrough space from Green to Blue and back are moot. The inhumi can \nfly through the vacuum just as easily as H. P. Lovecraft's beasties \nif SS is a fantasy.\n\nWhy does Wolfe bother to put in so many SFnal details, if we are \nsupposed to read SS as a fantasy, To pick just one specific example, \nin OBW on pp. 52 - 53, Horn and Sinew are discussing weapons.\n\n----------------\n[Sinew: ] In that book you and Mother wrote, you have one of the \nsoldiers tell somebody his slugs are made of some stuff I never heard \nof.\n\n[Horn: ] Yes, depleted uranium.\n----------------\n\nWhy does Wolfe bother with this passage, if all he wants to do is \napply a veneer of SF to the book? Why wasn't the stuff Sinew never \nheard of pixie dust or duralloy or neutronium?\n\nI can't say you are not right, because I don't know what was going on \nin Wolfe's mind, But, if you are right, I think Wolfe did a grave \ndisservice to his readers and has made it impossible to seriously \nconsider NS/UNS/LS/SS as a cohesive whole, which is surely what he \nwants; else why did he link the books so strongly?\n\nWilliam Ansley\n\n* NS = TBotNS = The Book of the New Sun (series)\n UNS = UotNS = Urth of the New Sun (novel)\n LS = TBotLS = The Book of the Long Sun (series)\n SS = TBotSS = The Book of the Short Sun (series)\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2001-02-19T01:57:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) TBOTSS as fantasy", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think SS is fantasy. Or at least, I suspect it's not meant to\nbe read that way.\n\nThe reason it is problematic is that the narrator makes use of\nabilities that are as strange as Severian's and we don't understand\nwhy he has them or what their implications are. In Severian's case,\nwe (sort of, at least) grasp the mechanisms (the corridors of time,\netc.). Also, it's easier to buy an almost apotheosis as SF with\ncosmic temporal metaphysics as underpinning than to understand what\nappears to be a curiously limited yet amazingly powerful ability\ngranted by enigmatic people we learn a good deal less about than the\nhierodules.\n\nBasically, SS looks like fantasy until we have further understanding\nof the role of the Neighbors. I'm willing to bet that if we can get\nthat, it will be much easier to \"buy\" what Silkhorn does (as a use of\nthe corridors of time, it makes considerable sense). But I, at least,\ndon't think I understand much about the Neighbors at all.\n\nThe godling seemed vaguely unneeded, and I'm willing to believe that\nWolfe used it as an impressive piece of stage setting (though I'd like\nto have some better justification), but the Neighbors are central to\nall three books, and I don't think they exist just \"to be cool\" or\ngive Silk comic book powers to show us how necrotic Urth really was." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-02-20T22:13:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) TBOTSS as fantasy", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 2/18/01 11:23 PM, William Ansley at wansley at warwick.net wrote:\nNo one forced Wolfe to write LS as a series loosely (and, before SS,\nuncertainly) linked to NS and UNS. Likewise, he did not have to write\nSS, as a direct continuation of LS and a series that also makes the\nlink between LS/SS and NS/UNS all but certain. Wolfe choose to do so\nhowever. If he also choose to make the LS (and NS/UNS) SF and SS\nfantasy, I think he is being terribly unfair to his readers.\n\nI am certainly not alone in reading SS as SF." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly not; I read it that way myself until about a week ago. It was\nreading Allan Lloyd's letter that gave me the idea of seeing it as fantasy,\nand I saw that it could provide a rationale for several of the features of\nSS that had annoyed me. And I don't exactly mean to say that SS is not SF,\nor at least I don't now; see below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All the arguments and\ndiscussions about the orbital mechanics of the Blue/Green system\nbecome meaningless if SS is fantasy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I remember these discussions well because I participated in them. But they\nnever came to a conclusion; and there's no indication of whether Wolfe ever\nworried about making the orbital mechanics seem plausible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Robert Borski's reason's for\nsaying he thinks the inhumi are lying when they say they can travel\nthrough space from Green to Blue and back are moot." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right; and there's no suggestion in the books of any alternative means for\nthem to travel from Green to Blue, which strongly suggests to me that they\ndo fly, despite the scientific implausibility and lack of any\nrationalization thereof." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why does Wolfe bother to put in so many SFnal details, if we are\nsupposed to read SS as a fantasy,\n[example snipped]\nWhy does Wolfe bother with this passage, if all he wants to do is\napply a veneer of SF to the book? Why wasn't the stuff Sinew never\nheard of pixie dust or duralloy or neutronium?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Veneer\" may have been the wrong word to use. Certainly I didn't mean to\ndeny that the books take place in the future of our Earth, and involve such\nSF tropes as a space colony seeded by a generation starship, self-aware\nartifical humans, and so on. A better way to put it migh have been that the\nShort Sun books used the vocabulary of science fiction (for the most part),\nbut arranged it according to the syntax of fantasy. Whether that makes them\n\"really science fiction\" or \"really fantasy\" is a matter of taste." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't say you are not right, because I don't know what was going on\nin Wolfe's mind, But, if you are right, I think Wolfe did a grave\ndisservice to his readers and has made it impossible to seriously\nconsider NS/UNS/LS/SS as a cohesive whole, which is surely what he\nwants; else why did he link the books so strongly?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's difficult to consider the universe of the books as a cohesive\nwhole, because of the implausibilities I and others (including you) have\npointed out in the Short Sun books, which don't mesh well with the other\nbooks. But I'm not sure that you can't consider the books themselves, as\nworks of literature, as a cohesive whole. After all, if I'm correct it\nwouldn't be the first time Wolfe has switched genres in the course of a\nseries. I'm referring to the series of linked short stories that starts\nwith \"The Dark of the June\" (iirc) and ends with \"Thag.\" The first story is\ndefinitely science fiction, the last is definitely fantasy. What Wolfe's\npurpose in doing the same thing here would be, and whether he pulls it off,\nare things I would have to think more about." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alex David Groce wrote:\nI don't think SS is fantasy. Or at least, I suspect it's not meant to\nbe read that way.\n\nThe reason it is problematic is that the narrator makes use of\nabilities that are as strange as Severian's and we don't understand\nwhy he has them or what their implications are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's one reason; I gave others in my original post." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Basically, SS looks like fantasy until we have further understanding\nof the role of the Neighbors. I'm willing to bet that if we can get\nthat, it will be much easier to \"buy\" what Silkhorn does (as a use of\nthe corridors of time, it makes considerable sense). But I, at least,\ndon't think I understand much about the Neighbors at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a possibility, of course: that there will turn out to be an\nexplanation for the Neighbors and their powers that makes them plausible as\naliens. But I'm dubious; similar enigmas in earlier books have proved\nremarkably resistant to the best efforts of explicators, as this list shows." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The godling seemed vaguely unneeded, and I'm willing to believe that\nWolfe used it as an impressive piece of stage setting (though I'd like\nto have some better justification), but the Neighbors are central to\nall three books, and I don't think they exist just \"to be cool\" or\ngive Silk comic book powers to show us how necrotic Urth really was." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I certainly don't think that. But I also don't think that they play the\nsame role as alien species in \"real\" sf.\n\nIn any case, I probably need to think this whole thing out further.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2001-02-21T08:56:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) TBOTSS as fantasy", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is not really a \"fair\" question. Wolfe is on record as saying he \nbelieve in ghosts, that he believes that gods (angels) ran the world before \nChrist came, etc. Thus, for him, the \"fantasy\" elements in his SF novels \nare just part of reality. He's sticking with reality, as he comprehends \nreality. It's not a case of Arthur Clarke's dictum that any highly advanced \nscience will look like magic to the uninitiated, though that's surely part \nof it. It's also that Wolfe believe that some kinds of \"magic\" are real.\n\nPatera Nutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }