{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1189", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1189, "subject": "Digest whorl.v012.n054", "messages": 1, "voices": 1, "first": "2001-02-18T12:17:32+00:00", "last": "2001-02-18T12:17:32+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "akt", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2001-02-18T12:17:32+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n054", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: dd at Adobe.COM (David DiGiacomo)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Quadrifons is a cherub..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thank you! I had no idea why Quadrifons appeared in the text, so this\nwas\nvery helpful\n\nWhy do you think that Quadrifons's name is not to be mentioned?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, hmm, there is no actual cherub with that name (I rely on Gustav\nDavidson's excellent -Dictionary of Angels-); it's a generic term which\ncomes from the description in Ezekiel 10.14 which gives them 4 wings and\n4 faces--the only one of a number of biblical references to do so; for\nexample, Revelation 4.8 gives them 6 wings and many eyes (but that's a\nmad text anyway). Blake took the Ezekiel description for his -Four\nZoas-. Other items of note: they're way older than Judaism--they go back\nto Assyrian-Chaldean-Babylonian times and may at first have been rather\nmalevolent. Satan was the Numero Uno cherub before the fall. I don't\nsuppose any of that helps, but you've got to admit it's interesting.\n\n-alga" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: dd at Adobe.COM (David DiGiacomo)\nSubject: Re: (whorl) Catching up continued\nDate: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:02:48 -0800 (PST)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Finally finished all the posts I had avoided while reading RTW. The\nonly\nfurther question I have to add is\nwhat happened to Mucor? Maytera Marble decided to return to the\nWhorl to\nhelp finish Olivine, but she just casually abandons her granddaughter\nMucor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marble says that Mucor is taking care of her, not vice versa, so she\nis\nnot hurting Mucor by leaving." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "During some of Horn/Silk's discussion and interactions with Mucor in\nthe\nWhorl I got the eerie feeling that Mucor had passed away on Blue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anyone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "see any evidence to support this? or not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No.\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n054.6 ---------------\n\nFrom: BraveSaintCroix at aol.com\nSubject: more RTTW questions\nDate: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:03:37 EST\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"US-ASCII\"\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\n\nFinished RTTW today and after that spent the evening catching up on\nposts on\nthis list. Most of the quiestions I had were answered, or at least\ntouched\non, but I have a few that I thought didn't get enough attention.\n\n1. Who was the man in a colorless robe on the top of the platue on\nGreen with\nJahlee? It was when Horn went back to search for her in the tower and\nended\nup climbing the cliff and getting attacked by inhumi. And what\nhappened up\nthere? When I first read \"colorless robe\" I thought of the fuligin\ncloak of\nthe turturers.\n\n2. What do you think of Horn being an inhumu? I think the evidence\nWolfe\ngives is too much to ignore. The fact that he hardly ever eats\nbothered me\nall through the book, especially when Hoof said he often pretended to\neat and\nthat the inhumu in the boat with them ate some potato soup. Also,\nHorn says\nsomething about a possible way he got to Green without an inhumu\npresent that\nhe didn't want to think about. There is definitely something there\nwe're not\nseeing.\n\nThat's all for now. More to say, but I've been online too long.\n\n-Steve\n\nPS: Say what you may, my vote is that RTTW was AWESOME.\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n054.7 ---------------\n\nFrom: Alex David Groce \nSubject: Re: (whorl) RTTW spoilers, Delusional and/or Quixotic\nDate: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:17:43 -0500\nIn-Reply-To: Your message of \"Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:54:11 PST.\"\n <200102180013.f1I0Dra70679 at lists1.ba.best.com>\n\n\n\nNice post, mantis.\n\nNote that there is also Nutria's reading: Horn isn't delusional, but\nhis family & Remora (our editors) are.\n\nI find the most convincing reading to be a mixture of the Quixotic and\nthe delusional: Horn and Silk are both present in the body from the\nmoment of the transfer from Green. Silk, however, is in a funk--while\nhe contributes to the actions of Silkhorn, at first he does not wish\nto acknowledge himself as still alive. Equally, Horn doesn't want to\nadmit to himself that he's \"dead,\" but certainly can't say \"I'm Silk\nnow\"--both because he's sane enough to know that he isn't the Silk\nthat New Viron needs, even if he is the real Silk in some sense. He's\nalso having a hard time admitting that Silk is in him wishing he were\ndead. The Long Sun narration makes it clear that the little suicide\nscene on top of the airship was traumatic for Horn. This is much\nworse.\n\nThe behavior ends up being very Silkish because both Horn (& the\nslowly emerging real Silk) view \"book Silk\" as a very good man. After\nall, thouhg Horn invented, to some extent, \"book Silk,\" where do we\nthink he got his idea of what a good man is?\n\nRemora doesn't drive Horn out as in an excorcism so much as force\nSilkhorn to acknowledge that by this point Horn has faded away--he can\ndie now, because he hasn't failed, really. Silk has become willing to\nlive by this point, but isn't willing to admit he's alive. Horn has\nbecome less and less essential, but cannot admit to himself that he is\ndead until Silk no longer needs him.\n\n\nSo, why, having become himself again, does Silk take off to return to\nthe whorl?\n\nAs I see it, Silk sees that the two problems facing the colonists are\nnot ones he can solve. p. 314 is the crucial point. First, Silk\nconsiders the government of New Viron. The _real Silk_, we know, gave\nup rulership in Viron once it became clear that he could not rule\nwithout forcing his will upon an unwiling populace. New Viron is in\nmuch worse state. \"Silk would pray, of course.\" If prayer and the\ninfluence of \"book Silk\" are all (hardly nothing, I would say) he can\ndo, he can do that as well from the Whorl, where he may really be\nneeded. Also, remember that at this point it is mostly Silk running\nthe show. Silk's home is the Whorl. He was willing to leave when it\nwas the order of Pas and the Outsider, but even then he turned back\nfor Hyacinth, and never left, though surely he had opportunities over\nthe years. He is a stranger on Blue.\n\nThe second problem is that of the inhumi, and again, it is the problem\nof evil. Indeed, despite his having discovered the humanity of the\ninhumi, Silkhorn is still himself capable of murdering his daughter\nwhen she attacks Nettle. He knows enough to doubt that there is a\n\"solution\" to this problem other than the one above--for men to be\nbetter than they are.\n\n\n--\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John\n8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science\nDepartment\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n054.8 ---------------\n\nFrom: Jeffrey Meyers \nSubject: Re: (whorl) Death of Jahlee\nDate: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:02:17 -0600\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"US-ASCII\"\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\nIn-Reply-To: <200102171912.f1HJCu668310 at lists1.ba.best.com>\n\nJames Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe that among the broad subtexts of the series is that Silk\nis like Jesus and Horn is a bit like Paul. Humans are the Jews, and\nthe\ninhumi are the barbarians to whom Paul was sent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ".. . ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " So, let's not be surprised if Jahlee's \"sanctification\" is\nimperfect. Wolfe's characters are on the road to being better\npeople, but\nthey are never perfect!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess I don't see how the inhumi as a whole are \"on the road to\nbeing\nbetter people.\" If the inhumi are Gentiles, why are so few of them\n(possibly Krait and Jahle alone; would you also say Fava?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"converted.\" If" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the NT typology is to make some sense, I guess I would expect more\n\"conversions\" among the \"Gentiles.\" Maybe I'm pressing it too much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is a major feature of NT history that many Gentiles come into the\nkingdom.\nThe inhumi, however, seem intractable. But maybe you're seeing these\n\"conversions\" as typical. But I just can't help thinking that most,\nif not\nall of the inhumi on Blue turn on Horn/silk in the attack at the\nwedding.\nOf course, the last words of the book (\"Good fishing!\") seem to\nindicate a\nfurther missionary effort to other \"Gentiles\" undertaken by the Bride\n(Nettle), the Holy Spirit (Oreb), and a representative of the old\nworld (the\nold sybl).\n\nPatera Bunny\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n054.9 ---------------\n\nFrom: Michael Andre-Driussi \nSubject: (whorl) RTTW spoilers, crutch of Horn\nDate: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:36:44 -0800\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\nReferences: Your message of \"Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:54:11 PST.\"\n <200102180013.f1I0Dra70679 at lists1.ba.best.com>\nIn-Reply-To: <200102180242.f1I2gne71875 at lists1.ba.best.com>\n\nAlex David Groce wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Note that there is also Nutria's reading: Horn isn't delusional, but\nhis family & Remora (our editors) are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right, that would be 0% Delusional for the narrator; the outsiders\ncannot\ngrok it, but the Outsider can." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find the most convincing reading to be a mixture of the Quixotic\nand\nthe delusional: Horn and Silk are both present in the body from the\nmoment of the transfer from Green. Silk, however, is in a\nfunk--while\nhe contributes to the actions of Silkhorn, at first he does not wish\nto acknowledge himself as still alive. Equally, Horn doesn't want to\nadmit to himself that he's \"dead,\" but certainly can't say \"I'm Silk\nnow\"--both because he's sane enough to know that he isn't the Silk\nthat New Viron needs, even if he is the real Silk in some sense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "also having a hard time admitting that Silk is in him wishing he were\ndead. The Long Sun narration makes it clear that the little suicide\nscene on top of the airship was traumatic for Horn. This is much\nworse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with just about all of the material you posted (I would go on\nmore\nabout how, after all this build up of \"natural king\" stuff, the events\nof\nGaon, and Viron before that, prove that there is no way Silk can do it\nright, etc.). I just had this sense that N was grasping at =all=\nstraws\n(following rumors that Silk was in hotel; catch whatever comes out of\nPig's\neye; etc.) while he was on the Whorl in an attempt to better complete\nhis\nmission. It didn't feel to me like he was entirely delusional in his\nQuixotic quest.\n\n(The whole issue of psychic \"fragments\" separate from body and spirit\nmight\npoint to a tripart system, like body/soul/spirit. I don't know. But\nmy\nintuitive model agrees with what Nutria said about how Silk's\nbrainstuff is\nstill there for N to use, just like his super-muscles are, even if\nSilk's\nspiritual essence is gone away.)\n\nOn to the new topic: if we can agree that \"Horn is a crutch,\" and I\ncan\nreadily go along with that, then suddenly I find myself asking \"why?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is strange, because I went along with it in the book (it especially\nseemed\n\"right\" after the whole wooly \"laying Cilinia to rest\" thing), but at\nthe\nmoment it seems odd. As if Thecla suddenly imploded ala Master Ash." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "perhaps Jonas imploding within Miles as the news of Jolenta's death\ngets to\nhim?\n\nThe \"easy\" answer is: well, Thecla was meant to be Severian's female\nside,\nhis constant companion; she has no goal beyond that, she had no life\nquest\nthat seeks completion, where completion leads to dissolution. But\nHorn\ncompletes his quest, and is now free to die? So his whole purpose was\nto\nbe the crutch? (Granted, there's that powerful twin-theme again: one\ndies,\nthe other is immortal.) Why not stay around? Unless such a state is,\ner,\n\"a fate worse than death\"?\n\n(Note that you are in direct contradiction of Nutria here, since he\nsays\nthat Horn is becoming more like Silk rather than imploding. And I can\nsee\nhis reading, too, fwiw.)\n\n(Eek, come to think of it . . . the equivalent of Thecla imploding\nmight\nvery well be that part in URTH where she appears in her own body, etc\n. . .\nhmmm.)\n\nOTOH, if it is Horn back at New Viron, then what is the attempted\nsuicide-by-inhumi-attack, a sort of exorcism of dark Silk through\nenactment\nof the thing itself? (I mean, it hardly seems like the sort of thing\none\nis going to do as one becomes \"Silkified\" . . . unless . . . ) And\nthen,\nhaving done that, N is a Horn/repaired-Silk?\n\n=mantis=\n\nSirius Fiction\nCatalog and errata sheet at http://www.sirius.com/~mantis/\n\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n054.10 ---------------\n\nFrom: \"Endymion9\" \nSubject: More RTW thoughts\nDate: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 23:42:54 -0600\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain;\ncharset=\"iso-8859-1\"\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\n\nJust some general thoughts.\n\nI thought RTW was the best conclusion to a Gene Wolfe series that I\nhave\nread. Yes I had problems, the same problems I have at the end of any\nWolfe\nstory. I don't know everything I want to know.\nLike what happens to Sinew and his Trivaguante wife. And other\nquestions I've listed in other posts. But this is nothing new.\n\nAnd I also wasn't thrilled that Krait died, Fava died, Jahlee died,\nHorn and\nSinew never could patch things up, etc., but who is to say the story\nwould\nhave been better if they hadn't. Also, I kind of like when a story is\nunpredictable and doesn't just do what I expect. It's rare to be\nsurprised\nwhen so many stories are just rehashes of previous work.\n\nI just know I felt much more satisfied after reading RTW than I did\nafter\nreading\nCitadel of the Autarch or Urth of the New Sun\nand Exiles of the Long Sun\n\n\nDennis/Endy\nhttp://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm\n\n\n\n--------------- END whorl.v012.n054 ---------------\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }