# Digest whorl.v012.n054 *The Whorl list — 1 messages, 1 voices, 18 Feb 2001* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### akt *18 Feb 2001, 12:17* > From: dd at Adobe.COM (David DiGiacomo) >> Quadrifons is a cherub... > Thank you! I had no idea why Quadrifons appeared in the text, so this > was > very helpful > > Why do you think that Quadrifons's name is not to be mentioned? Well, hmm, there is no actual cherub with that name (I rely on Gustav Davidson's excellent -Dictionary of Angels-); it's a generic term which comes from the description in Ezekiel 10.14 which gives them 4 wings and 4 faces--the only one of a number of biblical references to do so; for example, Revelation 4.8 gives them 6 wings and many eyes (but that's a mad text anyway). Blake took the Ezekiel description for his -Four Zoas-. Other items of note: they're way older than Judaism--they go back to Assyrian-Chaldean-Babylonian times and may at first have been rather malevolent. Satan was the Numero Uno cherub before the fall. I don't suppose any of that helps, but you've got to admit it's interesting. -alga > From: dd at Adobe.COM (David DiGiacomo) > Subject: Re: (whorl) Catching up continued > Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:02:48 -0800 (PST) >> Finally finished all the posts I had avoided while reading RTW. The >> only >> further question I have to add is >> what happened to Mucor? Maytera Marble decided to return to the >> Whorl to >> help finish Olivine, but she just casually abandons her granddaughter >> Mucor? > Marble says that Mucor is taking care of her, not vice versa, so she > is > not hurting Mucor by leaving. >> During some of Horn/Silk's discussion and interactions with Mucor in >> the >> Whorl I got the eerie feeling that Mucor had passed away on Blue. Anyone >> see any evidence to support this? or not? > No. > > > > --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n054.6 --------------- > > From: BraveSaintCroix at aol.com > Subject: more RTTW questions > Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:03:37 EST > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Finished RTTW today and after that spent the evening catching up on > posts on > this list. Most of the quiestions I had were answered, or at least > touched > on, but I have a few that I thought didn't get enough attention. > > 1. Who was the man in a colorless robe on the top of the platue on > Green with > Jahlee? It was when Horn went back to search for her in the tower and > ended > up climbing the cliff and getting attacked by inhumi. And what > happened up > there? When I first read "colorless robe" I thought of the fuligin > cloak of > the turturers. > > 2. What do you think of Horn being an inhumu? I think the evidence > Wolfe > gives is too much to ignore. The fact that he hardly ever eats > bothered me > all through the book, especially when Hoof said he often pretended to > eat and > that the inhumu in the boat with them ate some potato soup. Also, > Horn says > something about a possible way he got to Green without an inhumu > present that > he didn't want to think about. There is definitely something there > we're not > seeing. > > That's all for now. More to say, but I've been online too long. > > -Steve > > PS: Say what you may, my vote is that RTTW was AWESOME. > > > --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n054.7 --------------- > > From: Alex David Groce > Subject: Re: (whorl) RTTW spoilers, Delusional and/or Quixotic > Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:17:43 -0500 > In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:54:11 PST." > <200102180013.f1I0Dra70679 at lists1.ba.best.com> > > > > Nice post, mantis. > > Note that there is also Nutria's reading: Horn isn't delusional, but > his family & Remora (our editors) are. > > I find the most convincing reading to be a mixture of the Quixotic and > the delusional: Horn and Silk are both present in the body from the > moment of the transfer from Green. Silk, however, is in a funk--while > he contributes to the actions of Silkhorn, at first he does not wish > to acknowledge himself as still alive. Equally, Horn doesn't want to > admit to himself that he's "dead," but certainly can't say "I'm Silk > now"--both because he's sane enough to know that he isn't the Silk > that New Viron needs, even if he is the real Silk in some sense. He's > also having a hard time admitting that Silk is in him wishing he were > dead. The Long Sun narration makes it clear that the little suicide > scene on top of the airship was traumatic for Horn. This is much > worse. > > The behavior ends up being very Silkish because both Horn (& the > slowly emerging real Silk) view "book Silk" as a very good man. After > all, thouhg Horn invented, to some extent, "book Silk," where do we > think he got his idea of what a good man is? > > Remora doesn't drive Horn out as in an excorcism so much as force > Silkhorn to acknowledge that by this point Horn has faded away--he can > die now, because he hasn't failed, really. Silk has become willing to > live by this point, but isn't willing to admit he's alive. Horn has > become less and less essential, but cannot admit to himself that he is > dead until Silk no longer needs him. > > > So, why, having become himself again, does Silk take off to return to > the whorl? > > As I see it, Silk sees that the two problems facing the colonists are > not ones he can solve. p. 314 is the crucial point. First, Silk > considers the government of New Viron. The _real Silk_, we know, gave > up rulership in Viron once it became clear that he could not rule > without forcing his will upon an unwiling populace. New Viron is in > much worse state. "Silk would pray, of course." If prayer and the > influence of "book Silk" are all (hardly nothing, I would say) he can > do, he can do that as well from the Whorl, where he may really be > needed. Also, remember that at this point it is mostly Silk running > the show. Silk's home is the Whorl. He was willing to leave when it > was the order of Pas and the Outsider, but even then he turned back > for Hyacinth, and never left, though surely he had opportunities over > the years. He is a stranger on Blue. > > The second problem is that of the inhumi, and again, it is the problem > of evil. Indeed, despite his having discovered the humanity of the > inhumi, Silkhorn is still himself capable of murdering his daughter > when she attacks Nettle. He knows enough to doubt that there is a > "solution" to this problem other than the one above--for men to be > better than they are. > > > -- > "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John > 8:32 > -- > Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu) > Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science > Department > 8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066 > http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce > > > --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n054.8 --------------- > > From: Jeffrey Meyers > Subject: Re: (whorl) Death of Jahlee > Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:02:17 -0600 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In-Reply-To: <200102171912.f1HJCu668310 at lists1.ba.best.com> > > James Jordan wrote: >> I believe that among the broad subtexts of the series is that Silk >> is like Jesus and Horn is a bit like Paul. Humans are the Jews, and >> the >> inhumi are the barbarians to whom Paul was sent. > .. . . >> So, let's not be surprised if Jahlee's "sanctification" is >> imperfect. Wolfe's characters are on the road to being better >> people, but >> they are never perfect! > I guess I don't see how the inhumi as a whole are "on the road to > being > better people." If the inhumi are Gentiles, why are so few of them > (possibly Krait and Jahle alone; would you also say Fava?) "converted." If > the NT typology is to make some sense, I guess I would expect more > "conversions" among the "Gentiles." Maybe I'm pressing it too much. But it > is a major feature of NT history that many Gentiles come into the > kingdom. > The inhumi, however, seem intractable. But maybe you're seeing these > "conversions" as typical. But I just can't help thinking that most, > if not > all of the inhumi on Blue turn on Horn/silk in the attack at the > wedding. > Of course, the last words of the book ("Good fishing!") seem to > indicate a > further missionary effort to other "Gentiles" undertaken by the Bride > (Nettle), the Holy Spirit (Oreb), and a representative of the old > world (the > old sybl). > > Patera Bunny > > > > --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n054.9 --------------- > > From: Michael Andre-Driussi > Subject: (whorl) RTTW spoilers, crutch of Horn > Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:36:44 -0800 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > References: Your message of "Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:54:11 PST." > <200102180013.f1I0Dra70679 at lists1.ba.best.com> > In-Reply-To: <200102180242.f1I2gne71875 at lists1.ba.best.com> > > Alex David Groce wrote: >> Note that there is also Nutria's reading: Horn isn't delusional, but >> his family & Remora (our editors) are. > Right, that would be 0% Delusional for the narrator; the outsiders > cannot > grok it, but the Outsider can. >> I find the most convincing reading to be a mixture of the Quixotic >> and >> the delusional: Horn and Silk are both present in the body from the >> moment of the transfer from Green. Silk, however, is in a >> funk--while >> he contributes to the actions of Silkhorn, at first he does not wish >> to acknowledge himself as still alive. Equally, Horn doesn't want to >> admit to himself that he's "dead," but certainly can't say "I'm Silk >> now"--both because he's sane enough to know that he isn't the Silk >> that New Viron needs, even if he is the real Silk in some sense. He's >> also having a hard time admitting that Silk is in him wishing he were >> dead. The Long Sun narration makes it clear that the little suicide >> scene on top of the airship was traumatic for Horn. This is much >> worse. > I agree with just about all of the material you posted (I would go on > more > about how, after all this build up of "natural king" stuff, the events > of > Gaon, and Viron before that, prove that there is no way Silk can do it > right, etc.). I just had this sense that N was grasping at =all= > straws > (following rumors that Silk was in hotel; catch whatever comes out of > Pig's > eye; etc.) while he was on the Whorl in an attempt to better complete > his > mission. It didn't feel to me like he was entirely delusional in his > Quixotic quest. > > (The whole issue of psychic "fragments" separate from body and spirit > might > point to a tripart system, like body/soul/spirit. I don't know. But > my > intuitive model agrees with what Nutria said about how Silk's > brainstuff is > still there for N to use, just like his super-muscles are, even if > Silk's > spiritual essence is gone away.) > > On to the new topic: if we can agree that "Horn is a crutch," and I > can > readily go along with that, then suddenly I find myself asking "why?" It > is strange, because I went along with it in the book (it especially > seemed > "right" after the whole wooly "laying Cilinia to rest" thing), but at > the > moment it seems odd. As if Thecla suddenly imploded ala Master Ash. Or > perhaps Jonas imploding within Miles as the news of Jolenta's death > gets to > him? > > The "easy" answer is: well, Thecla was meant to be Severian's female > side, > his constant companion; she has no goal beyond that, she had no life > quest > that seeks completion, where completion leads to dissolution. But > Horn > completes his quest, and is now free to die? So his whole purpose was > to > be the crutch? (Granted, there's that powerful twin-theme again: one > dies, > the other is immortal.) Why not stay around? Unless such a state is, > er, > "a fate worse than death"? > > (Note that you are in direct contradiction of Nutria here, since he > says > that Horn is becoming more like Silk rather than imploding. And I can > see > his reading, too, fwiw.) > > (Eek, come to think of it . . . the equivalent of Thecla imploding > might > very well be that part in URTH where she appears in her own body, etc > . . . > hmmm.) > > OTOH, if it is Horn back at New Viron, then what is the attempted > suicide-by-inhumi-attack, a sort of exorcism of dark Silk through > enactment > of the thing itself? (I mean, it hardly seems like the sort of thing > one > is going to do as one becomes "Silkified" . . . unless . . . ) And > then, > having done that, N is a Horn/repaired-Silk? > > =mantis= > > Sirius Fiction > Catalog and errata sheet at http://www.sirius.com/~mantis/ > > > > > --------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n054.10 --------------- > > From: "Endymion9" > Subject: More RTW thoughts > Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 23:42:54 -0600 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Just some general thoughts. > > I thought RTW was the best conclusion to a Gene Wolfe series that I > have > read. Yes I had problems, the same problems I have at the end of any > Wolfe > story. I don't know everything I want to know. > Like what happens to Sinew and his Trivaguante wife. And other > questions I've listed in other posts. But this is nothing new. > > And I also wasn't thrilled that Krait died, Fava died, Jahlee died, > Horn and > Sinew never could patch things up, etc., but who is to say the story > would > have been better if they hadn't. Also, I kind of like when a story is > unpredictable and doesn't just do what I expect. It's rare to be > surprised > when so many stories are just rehashes of previous work. > > I just know I felt much more satisfied after reading RTW than I did > after > reading > Citadel of the Autarch or Urth of the New Sun > and Exiles of the Long Sun > > > Dennis/Endy > http://home.mindspring.com/~endymion9/index.htm > > > > --------------- END whorl.v012.n054 --------------- > > > *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. ---