{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/12", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 12, "subject": "Void Cross", "messages": 4, "voices": 2, "first": "1996-12-16T13:20:39+00:00", "last": "1997-01-23T10:32:51+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Doug Eigsti", "address": "douge at nti.com" }, "date": "1996-12-16T13:20:39+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Void Cross", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whorl Wolfe's;\n\n\tWhat is the Void Cross that Silk wears? Silk refers to it as a\ngammadion. Some have said that it is a swastika but this does not quite\nfit the descriptions: NIGHTSIDE pages (hardback); 43, 112, 170, 217, 239,\n291. It clearly must have an \"X\" shaped cross or plus sign void in the\ncenter of the four gammas. A swastika does not fit the bill.\n\tOne configuration that does fit follows: Imagine a 5 x 5 square\nwith a cross, or plus sign, occupying the five center squares. Now arrange\nfour \"gammas\" around the edges consisting of four squares in line and then\none square next to the last one but to the right. This is like an\nelongated Knight's move. Each gamma on Silk's necklace can be separated\nand used as a screwdriver for checking the electrical connections on the\nSacred windows. When connected in this manner the four gammas do form a\nvoid cross in the center. It does not have the mistique of a swastika but\nis more appropriate for the cross symbolism of Wolfe's story. \n\n\n=Doug Eigsti=\n\n\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1996-12-18T19:39:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Void Cross", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:20 PM 12/16/96 -0700, Doug E. wrote:\n\nWhat is the Void Cross that Silk wears? Silk refers to it as a\ngammadion. Some have said that it is a swastika but this does not quite\nfit the descriptions: NIGHTSIDE pages (hardback); 43, 112, 170, 217, 239,\n291. It clearly must have an \"X\" shaped cross or plus sign void in the\ncenter of the four gammas. A swastika does not fit the bill." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tNot sure. My dictionary gives \"swastika\" as equivalent of \"gammadion.\"\nSilk's cross has corners that he can us to carve with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One configuration that does fit follows: Imagine a 5 x 5 square\nwith a cross, or plus sign, occupying the five center squares. Now arrange\nfour \"gammas\" around the edges consisting of four squares in line and then\none square next to the last one but to the right. This is like an\nelongated Knight's move. Each gamma on Silk's necklace can be separated\nand used as a screwdriver for checking the electrical connections on the\nSacred windows. When connected in this manner the four gammas do form a\nvoid cross in the center. It does not have the mistique of a swastika but\nis more appropriate for the cross symbolism of Wolfe's story. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tIf I read you correctly, this is not one of the traditional meanings of\n\"gammadion.\" The other is \"voided Greek cross.\" The Greek cross has the\ncrossbar in the center of the vertical bar, and of equal length, looking\nexactly like a plus sign +. A voided Greek cross evidently has two lines in\neach directly, closed at the ends. Thus, one line is straight, while the\nother is a gamma -- in each of the four directions. \n\n\tOnly Gene could answer which is in view, but Meyers is certainly right\nthat a cross emptied of Christ is partly in view -- since Pas has tried to\npervert the traditional religion of the people. But since this is Pas's\ncross (as we are told), it may be a swastika.\n\tAnd don't put it past Gene to be doing something sophisticated. Remember\nthat before Hitler the swastika was a perfectly good Christian symbol. This\nstory is set in the equivalent of the far future but in a universe\npreceding ours -- so the Hitler-association would be long gone, if ever it\nexisted. \n\tI suspect Gene intends a variety of associations, corresponding the\nambiguity of the religious Silk serves. \n\nJim Jordan\n\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Doug Eigsti", "address": "douge at nti.com" }, "date": "1996-12-19T06:14:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Void Cross", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[Posted from Whorl, the mailing list for Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun]\n\nAt 01:20 PM 12/16/96 -0700, Doug E. wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What is the Void Cross that Silk wears? Silk refers to it as a\ngammadion. Some have said that it is a swastika but this does not quite\nfit the descriptions: NIGHTSIDE pages (hardback); 43, 112, 170, 217, 239,\n291. It clearly must have an \"X\" shaped cross or plus sign void in the\ncenter of the four gammas. A swastika does not fit the bill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tNot sure. My dictionary gives \"swastika\" as equivalent of \"gammadion.\"\nSilk's cross has corners that he can us to carve with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One configuration that does fit follows: Imagine a 5 x 5 square\nwith a cross, or plus sign, occupying the five center squares. Now arrange\nfour \"gammas\" around the edges consisting of four squares in line and then\none square next to the last one but to the right. This is like an\nelongated Knight's move. Each gamma on Silk's necklace can be separated\nand used as a screwdriver for checking the electrical connections on the\nSacred windows. When connected in this manner the four gammas do form a\nvoid cross in the center. It does not have the mistique of a swastika but\nis more appropriate for the cross symbolism of Wolfe's story. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tIf I read you correctly, this is not one of the traditional meanings of\n\"gammadion.\" The other is \"voided Greek cross.\" The Greek cross has the\ncrossbar in the center of the vertical bar, and of equal length, looking\nexactly like a plus sign +. A voided Greek cross evidently has two lines in\neach directly, closed at the ends. Thus, one line is straight, while the\nother is a gamma -- in each of the four directions. \n\n\tOnly Gene could answer which is in view, but Meyers is certainly right\nthat a cross emptied of Christ is partly in view -- since Pas has tried to\npervert the traditional religion of the people. But since this is Pas's\ncross (as we are told), it may be a swastika.\n\tAnd don't put it past Gene to be doing something sophisticated. Remember\nthat before Hitler the swastika was a perfectly good Christian symbol. This\nstory is set in the equivalent of the far future but in a universe\npreceding ours -- so the Hitler-association would be long gone, if ever it\nexisted. \n\tI suspect Gene intends a variety of associations, corresponding the\nambiguity of the religious Silk serves. \n\nJim Jordan" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jim J,\n\n\tI can see how your Voided Greek Cross, which does indeed look like\na plus-sign, can be made out of four gammas and four straight lines but to\nmy knowledge Wolfe never mentions the Voided Cross of Pas as consisting of\nanything more than four gamma shaped pieces that Silk uses to tighten the\nconnections of the Sacred Windows. Somehow these four gammas must fit\ntogether leaving a plus-sign shaped void in the center. \n\tIf the Outsider is the God of the Christian Bible and Pas and his \ncohorts are considered to be mere pretenders to the throne of men's souls \nthen the Void Cross would be a negation symbol indicating Pas' antagonizm \nto everything the Christian Cross stands for: i.e. he is the equivalent \nof the Devil. Early in the text of NIGHTSIDE Wolfe indicates that the \nOutsider was worshiped in The Short Sun Whorl before the Nine. The Nine \nare limited to inside the Whorl. The Outsider is everywhere on the \noutside, just as the Christian God is omnipresent.\n\n\n=Doug=\t\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Doug Eigsti", "address": "douge at nti.com" }, "date": "1997-01-23T10:32:51+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Void Cross", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fernando writes," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "**** On Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:17:47 -0700 (MST), douge at nti.com (Doug Eigsti) said:\n\nDoug> \tI like your diagram it does seem to allow for the void-cross, and\nDoug> it is a nice plus-sign shape. I can find two things to take\nDoug> exception. One: The disconnected gammas which you mentioned. It\nDoug> would be more elegant if the gammas were self connected, not needing\nDoug> a framework to keep them together. Two: Gammas do not have arms of\nDoug> equal length. They look like an upside down capitol \"L\".\n\nXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\nXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\nXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\nXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\nOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO XXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\nOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO XXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\nOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO XXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\nOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO XXXXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOO\nOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO\nOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO\nOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO\nOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO\nOOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXX OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO\nOOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXX OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO\nOOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXX OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO\nOOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXX OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO\nOOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX\nOOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX\nOOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX\nOOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX\n\n\nDoug> This has the advantage of being connected and built exclusively from\nDoug> four gamma shaped objects. One can see how Silk could use a gamma as\nDoug> a screwdriver for tightening the power connections on a window.\n\nIt has the disadvantage, though, of not being a cross at all! Since Wolfe\nrepeatedly says \"voided cross\", I'd expect something that was a cross but\nhad some sort of hole it in. (Or was missing something---an allusion I\nthink Wolfe intends but that is immaterial to the shape of the thing.)\n\n\nFernando\n\n\n-- \n\nFernando Q. Gouvea\t\t\t\nChair, Dept. of Math & CS\t\tEditor, MAA Online\nColby College\t\t\t\thttp://www.maa.org\nfqgouvea at colby.edu\t\t\tfqgouvea at maa.org\n==========================================================" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fernando,\n\n\tMy concept of a voided cross is that of a cross shaped void. I \nfound a couple of references in LONG SUN to support this:\n\n\tNIGHTSIDE p.112.1 - \"There was a secret in the empty, X-shaped \nspace,... a mystery far beyond the detachable arms.\"\n\n\tCALDE p. 322.1 - \"...again traced the sign of addition, which \ncould not - now he came to think of it - ever have been Pas's. A sign of \naddition was a cross... Pas's sign was not a cross but the voided cross.\"\n\n\tNote that it is the empty space that is considered the cross, not \nthe surrounding framework.\n\tThe OED sheds some light on this also:\n\n\tGAMMADION - A decorative pattern formed of repititions or \ncombinations of the shape of the Greek letter gamma. By antiquaries \napplied otherwise fylfot. Also to a figure composed of four gammas placed \nback to back in such a way as to form a voided Greek cross.\n\n\tVOIDED - 2. having a part or portion cut out so as to leave a \nvoid or vacant space.\n\t\tc. Her(aldry) - voided per cross - c1828 Berry. Encycl. \nHer. Gloss. voided per cross is a voiding in the form of a cross, such as \na cross Moline, and the like, voided, or cut, out in the middle in the \nshape of a plain cross through which the field is seen.\n\n\tDave Lebling referred me to the OED. Thanks.\n\nDave has stated on these pages that he thinks Silk's cross fits the OED \ndefinition.\n\nDave, \n\n\tI visited the cross web site you listed and found it very well \ndone. Someone is really into crosses. The second listing for a gammadion \ndoes indeed look like a passable design for Pas's Void Cross. You are \ncorrect that the gammas do not need to have arms of unequal length. The \ngammadion listed there shows each of the four gammas being symmetrical. \n\tI am willing to concede that this gammadion shaped like a Greek\nCross is probably the one intended by Wolfe. It being a more obscure\nreference than the swastica definition for a gammadion would appeal to\nWolfe's flair for mischief while still maintaining his tendency to utilize\nexisting, albeit obsolete, words, weapons and other implements. This\ndesign makes a fine hearldric symbol but cannot be directly translated\ninto a physical object. I still prefer the design I had referred to earlier\nas being more satisfying because all the gammas are physically connected\nwithout an additional framework and because the cross appears without\norienting the gammas in a cross pattern. The void does not follow the\nshape of the gammas. When looking at the other gammadion the eye is drawn\nto the outline determined by the gammas and not to the narrow void in the\nmiddle.\n\tOne nomenclature oddity strikes me as I researched the \nreferences to the void cross: the individual pieces of the gammadion are \nthemselves referred to as gammadions:\n\n\tNIGHTSIDE - p.217.-5 - \"...pointed corner of one of the four\ngammadions...\" \n\n\tNIGHTSIDE - P.292.1 - \"...gammadion by gammadion...\"\n\nIs this correct?\n\n\t\n=Doug Eigsti=\ndouge at nti.com\n\n\n\nQuestions or problems to whorl-owner at lists.best.com" } ] } ] }