{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1206", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1206, "subject": "Short Sun books inaccessible?", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2001-02-20T11:39:30+00:00", "last": "2001-02-20T22:59:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-02-20T11:39:30+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Short Sun books inaccessible?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 2/19/01 11:51 PM, William Ansley at wansley at warwick.net wrote:\nDespite my satisfaction in revelations, I believe that a novel should\nbe entertaining on a surface level so that it can be enjoyed by\nsomeone who isn't aware of all the buried layers of meaning that may\nbe present, even if that enjoyment is shallow compared to the \"deep\"\nenjoyment of the reader who does make the extra effort to penetrate\nas many of the underlaying layers as he or she can." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip] " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I worry because I also think that Wolfe has succeeded less in the\nSS books in providing both an accessible surface layer and a coherent\nframework for understanding the underlying layers. Wolfe should write\nwhat he wants to write, of course, but if he really is writing for a\nsmaller and smaller group with each book, how much longer will his\nbooks continue to be published? Publishers exist to make a profit,\nespecially now. Perhaps Wolfe's oft stated fears that his next\nsubmitted work will not be accepted for publication are more\nrealistic than we realize." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I said earlier, I don't think RTTW is the most obscure of Wolfe's books;\nnor do I think any of the SS books are among the most obscure. Possibly I'm\noverestimating the reading acumen of the average Wolfe-buying SF reader, but\nI really think the narrator's identity is not that difficult to determine.\nCertainly Wolfe provides more explicit indications than he does of\n\"Marsch\"'s identity in \"V. R. T.,\" let alone Weer's state in PEACE.\n\nI agree that RTTW's surface layer is less immediately enjoyable than that of\nsome of his other works, but I don't think it's because of too many \"buried\nlayers of meaning\"; I think it's because of the arbitrariness I mentioned in\nan earlier post, and the number of subplots he leaves dangling. (Of course,\nit's possible that these reflect some hidden meaning that I've missed.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also have to admit that I enjoyed the SS books less than the LS\nbooks and those less than the NS books," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would rank the New Sun books first, the Short Sun books second, and the\nLogn Sun books third." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Wolfe does write another\nbook that continues the LS/SS series, I am going to have to think\nlong and hard before I decide whether I am going to read it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would definitely read it, but I hope he doesn't. Frankly, I think seven\nbooks is more than enough for this particular corner of Wolfe's universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I really \nfeel that I would have understood and therefore enjoyed RttW better\nif I had re-read all of the LS and the previous two SS books\nimmediately beforehand. But I just didn't have time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me neither; nor did I have the inclination to reread LS (one of the things I\ndidn't particularly like about RTTW was that it was much more closely tied\nto the LS books than were the other two SS books, not just in taking place\nlargely on the Whorl, but in the return of the possession theme and the\nwhole murder-of-Pas plot). But I may have to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To rephrase one \nof the questions above:\n\nHas Wolfe crossed the line from legitimately challenging his readers\nto asking far more of them than can reasonably be expected?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To rephrase one of my answers: I think Wolfe sometimes does ask more of his\nreaders than can reasonably be expected; sometimes, perhaps, without\nrealizing he is doing so. But I don't think he does so in the Short Sun\nbooks more than in his others.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2001-02-20T22:59:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Short Sun books inaccessible?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:39 AM -0600 2/20/01, Adam Stephanides wrote:\nI agree that RTTW's surface layer is less immediately enjoyable than that of\nsome of his other works, but I don't think it's because of too many \"buried\nlayers of meaning\"; I think it's because of the arbitrariness I mentioned in\nan earlier post, and the number of subplots he leaves dangling. (Of course,\nit's possible that these reflect some hidden meaning that I've missed.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam,\n\nI think you are exactly right. I was confusing complexity/obscurity \nof plot with 'multiplexity'/obscurity of layers of meaning. I hope \nthat if I do re-read the LS and SS books all in a row that they will \nseem less arbitrary and some of the dangling subplots will turn out \nnot to be dangling after all. But I am not likely to re-read these \nbooks any time soon and it is not a strong hope." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I said earlier, I don't think RTTW is the most obscure of Wolfe's books;\nnor do I think any of the SS books are among the most obscure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, I have to agree with you, now that I really think about it. It \nactually just seems incomplete to me, which is why I so strongly \nsuspect that Wolfe is going to write a sequel. (Not that I expect the \nsequel, if there is one, will provide a complete sense of closure!)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " > I also have to admit that I enjoyed the SS books less than the LS\n books and those less than the NS books,\n\nI would rank the New Sun books first, the Short Sun books second, and the\nLogn Sun books third." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I rank the LS and SS books well below NS and very close together. It \nis really a toss up between the two newer series. I remember that I \nwas in no great hurry to buy the final volume of LS and the reason \nthat I got a copy of RttW as quickly as I did was so that I could \ncontinue to follow the discussion here. Oh yeah, and a forlorn hope \nthat Wolfe would provide answers. Well he did provide *some* answers, \nI have to admit that, although some of them were answers I didn't \nlike.\n\nWilliam Ansley\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }