{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1219", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1219, "subject": "Horn ain't dead", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2001-02-22T00:27:01+00:00", "last": "2001-02-25T20:59:23+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "akt", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2001-02-22T00:27:01+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Horn ain't dead", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jim Jordan " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Though I should add an amusing personal note. Wolfe has read and\ndeeply\nappreciates John Clute's\nSF Weekly Review of RTTW." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, that being the case, I must bow and admit that Horn is dead and\nSilk\nlives. I was never certain, but I thought a case should be made for\nthe\nHorn Lives standpoint. I'll have to rethink a few categories..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been staying out of most of this because (a) I have other things on\nmy mind and (b) I don't have a copy of RTW handy to refer to. Though I\nam on record as one of the disappointed ones. But I can never resist\nRatty:\n\nIt seems more and more repetitive to say so, but you just can't ignore\nthe computer model that GW has been enamoured with from the start of LS.\nYes, he has used dual (multiple) personalities before, as was clear with\nSev, but the whole idea of uploading and downloading very palpably took\nhis fancy at the point where the PC entered his life. So I will argue\nfor the Horn Lives viewpoint--quite vehemently, actually. You could say\nthat Horn's spirit was a very successful virus taking over the Silk\nfunctional operating system (body). Or some other metaphor. But it seems\nto me completely clear that whoever this person thinks he is at the end\nof the book, Horn is *still there*. He will not, cannot, be erased from\nthe system completely. It might be like Sev being able to access Thecla\nor the Autarch or whomever. Or not. Somewhere in LS there is an\nexplanation of how, after a god has possessed someone, the god is never\ncompletely erased, and this is similar.\n\nIt seems to me that, if GW should want to write another book about these\npeople (my guess is not, because he seems so tired of them at this\npoint--but you never know). it will be important to the plot to have the\ndual Silk/Horn interface. Like having Windows and Linux on the same\nmachine.\n\n-alga\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-02-25T20:59:23+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Horn ain't dead", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "alga wrote:\nIt seems more and more repetitive to say so, but you just can't ignore\nthe computer model that GW has been enamoured with from the start of LS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So I will argue\nfor the Horn Lives viewpoint--quite vehemently, actually. You could say\nthat Horn's spirit was a very successful virus taking over the Silk\nfunctional operating system (body). Or some other metaphor. But it seems\nto me completely clear that whoever this person thinks he is at the end\nof the book, Horn is *still there*. He will not, cannot, be erased from\nthe system completely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not clear to me why you regard the computer model as conclusive\nevidence that Horn lives. It's quite possible to completely purge an\ninvading virus (or operating system, or whatever) from a computer it's\ninfected." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It might be like Sev being able to access Thecla\nor the Autarch or whomever. Or not. Somewhere in LS there is an\nexplanation of how, after a god has possessed someone, the god is never\ncompletely erased, and this is similar." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While it's not a direct refutation of your point, I don't believe that the\nSilk-Horn situation is equivalent to possession or to the Severian-Thecla\nsituation (or to the Windows-Linux metaphor you used later). There's no\nevidence that two separate personalities coexist in Silk's body which can\nmanifest themselves independently. Rather, what seems to be going on is\nthat Silk and Horn's personalities have merged into the single entity I, and\nothers, have been calling Silkhorn.\n\nAs to your main point, I think we should draw a distinction between memory\nand spirit (simplifying Dan'l's excellent post). I am quite willing to\naccept that Silk retains Horn's memories, although I there's no direct\nevidence for this. But as for spirit, while I am far from having a clear\nunderstanding of what's going on, I am going to take the appearance of\nSilkhorn's astral body as a definitive indicator, unless somebody has a\nbetter alternative. And, going by that, Horn's spirit does depart at some\npoint before the astral trip to \"bring Scylla home.\"\n\n--Adam\n\n\n \n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }