{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1221", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1221, "subject": "FTP Pig; Clute's Review; Not Boredom", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2001-02-22T08:41:43+00:00", "last": "2001-02-22T17:59:34+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Lebling", "address": "dlebling at ucentric.com" }, "date": "2001-02-22T09:36:23+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) FTP Pig; Clute's Review; Not Boredom", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1) Pig(Passilk) -> monitor -> Silk(Horn)? No.\n\nFrom: \"Patrick O'Leary\" \n<<1. Passilk does not infiltrate Silk in Pig's Post-Op scene. Yes, there\nis a monitor.>>\n\nFrom: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \n<<4. At the West Pole, the scanned Silk reenters the body\n-- *not* from Pig, but from the glass.>>\n\nI agree with Patrick here. I've read that scene three or four times now, and\nI don't see anything that indicates Passilk enters Silk/Horn's mind at this\npoint. There is no change in Silk/Horn's (or Pig's!) demeanor or style of\nspeech, no subtle hint, no nothing.\n\nSome have argued that Passilk leaves Pig and then enters Silk/Horn. Bah.\nAgain, no evidence in favor.\n\nAgainst, there is the fact that Horn talks about how if he had brought Pig\nto Blue, he wouldn't have failed in his mission. When gods de-possess\nhumans, they leave. If Passilk went to Silk/Horn, he'd be gone from Pig, and\nI think Silk/Horn would know, if only subconsciously, that such a transfer\nhad happened.\n\n2) Horn Lives!\n\n<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Though I should add an amusing personal note. Wolfe has read and deeply\nappreciates John Clute's\nSF Weekly Review of RTTW." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that being the case, I must bow and admit that Horn is dead and Silk\nlives. I was never certain, but I thought a case should be made for the\nHorn Lives standpoint. I'll have to rethink a few categories...>>\n\nI just reread Clute's review and I don't see where it says Horn is dead.\n\"Enfolded,\" yes, they \"write each other,\" yes. The closest he comes to\nsaying Horn is dead is this: \"By spending something like his life (but of\ncourse he has been something like dead for most of the trilogy) Horn\nsucceeds in his quest and bids us farewell.\"\n\nI don't think this plus \"deeply appreciates\" is enough to declare Horn dead.\nHorn is dead in exactly the sense that Thecla, the old Autarch, and Pas\nhimself are dead: they exist as remnant identities in another medium. Horn\nindeed bids us farewell at the end of RttW, but so does Silk.\n\n3) Boredom?\n\nFrom: \n<>\n\n(I deeply appreciate this comment, because I do have Windows and Linux on\nthe same box.)\n\nBut seriously, I take the disquisition by Hoof on how scary Silk was, and\nSeverian's comment that no one would believe him if he wrote about Silk, as\na way of expressing how hard it is for Wolfe to write about this character.\nHe may not be so much bored with him as exhausted by him. When you come\nright down to it, would you rather spend an evening with Silk or with Horn?\nWolfe has spent a long time with this scary guy in his head.\n\nWhich brings up another thought. All of the \"Sun\" books are concerned to a\ngreater or lesser extent with authorship, writing, publishing, imagining,\nand most importantly, the effect of having someone else's personality stuck\nin your head for long periods. These are all the chief day-to-day concerns\nof the writer, aside from where the next cup of coffee and next paragraph\nare coming from. I'd love to see someone scan the books to pull these out as\na coherent essay. It would be fascinating. As Horn becomes more Silk-like\nover time, has Wolfe? Wasn't there a reported comment by Wolfe's wife\nRosemary that Silk was the character most like Wolfe himself?\n\n Dave Lebling\n aka vizcacha\n\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-02-22T08:41:43+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) FTP Pig; Clute's Review; Not Boredom", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Vizcacha wrote:\nI agree with Patrick here. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On further thought, so do I. There is no real indicator that\n(Pas)Silk downloads into Silkhorn at any time. My reasoning\nwas that (1) Silk's spirit was dying, (2) Horn takes over,\n(3) Afterwards, Silk's spirit seems to be active. But, thinking\nabout it, I believe Silkhorn makes a few of the same kind of \nconfusions before the West Pole as he does after (though I \ncould be wrong; I don't have my copy here at work). What's\ncertain, though, is that there is no clear moment when it\nhappens or could happen. \n\nThough... Given the provenance of that scene, would the twins \nand their wives have known? I dunno. At any rate, there is no\ndirect evidence for a download, of which I am aware.\n\nWhat _is_ clear, though, is that the reason it was so critical\nto get Pig his e'en, or at least one, was so Silk-in-possession \ncould reintegrate with his Mainframe self -- the reason the\nnarrator says (in OBW? IGJ?) that he couldn't have left Pig \nblind.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2001-02-22T15:37:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) FTP Pig; Clute's Review; Not Boredom", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:36 AM 2/22/2001 -0500, vizcacha wrote:\nI just reread Clute's review and I don't see where it says Horn is dead.\n\"Enfolded,\" yes, they \"write each other,\" yes. The closest he comes to\nsaying Horn is dead is this: \"By spending something like his life (but of\ncourse he has been something like dead for most of the trilogy) Horn\nsucceeds in his quest and bids us farewell.\"\n\nI don't think this plus \"deeply appreciates\" is enough to declare Horn dead.\nHorn is dead in exactly the sense that Thecla, the old Autarch, and Pas\nhimself are dead: they exist as remnant identities in another medium. Horn\nindeed bids us farewell at the end of RttW, but so does Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Well, I'm happier with such a view. The thought that Horn's last \nwords are \"I should not have come back\", followed by his departure from \nthis world, makes the trilogy into a real tragedy. Also, I don't understand \nwhy Silk, who has never met Seawrack, would want her along on the way to \nthe Whorl (unless all these extended speculations about Hyacinth, Kypris, \netc. are valid -- but I'm a bit dubious about them).\n\nNutricious\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2001-02-22T17:59:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) FTP Pig; Clute's Review; Not Boredom", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nutria said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I'm happier with such a view. The thought that Horn's last\nwords are \"I should not have come back\", followed by his departure\nfrom this world, makes the trilogy into a real tragedy. Also, I\ndon't understand why Silk, who has never met Seawrack, would want\nher along on the way to the Whorl (unless all these extended\nspeculations about Hyacinth, Kypris, etc. are valid -- but I'm a bit\ndubious about them)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "in response to vizchaza:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think this plus \"deeply appreciates\" is enough to declare Horn dead.\nHorn is dead in exactly the sense that Thecla, the old Autarch, and Pas\nhimself are dead: they exist as remnant identities in another medium. Horn\nindeed bids us farewell at the end of RttW, but so does Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, but not completely. Severian contains multitudes, but I at\nleast don't think that we can say \"Severian is Thecla\" in quite the\nsame sense we can say \"Severian is Severian.\" And certainly the more\nancient personalities within him are less essential to the Severian\nwho writes BOTNS than Severian or Thecla.\n\nI think that until Remora's \"exorcism,\" we have a situation analogous\nto Severian going through the rest of CLAW, SWORD, and CITADEL after\nthe feast with Vodalus saying \"I am Thecla. I am not Severian.\" The\nfirst sentence is true, but far from completely true, and the second\nsentence is false. Mind you, I think that though Severian is Thecla,\nit is also legitimate to say that Thecla is _dead_. The Thecla in\nSeverian is (like the Horn in Silk) both something more and something\nless than a ghost. Horn is dead, though something of him lives on in\nthe man he died seeking. Horn can properly fall into the role of a\nTheclaish presence once Silk is willing to acknowledge his own\nidentity." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }