# FTP Pig; Clute's Review; Not Boredom *The Whorl list — 4 messages, 4 voices, 22 Feb 2001* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### David Lebling *22 Feb 2001, 09:36* 1) Pig(Passilk) -> monitor -> Silk(Horn)? No. From: "Patrick O'Leary" <<1. Passilk does not infiltrate Silk in Pig's Post-Op scene. Yes, there is a monitor.>> From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <<4. At the West Pole, the scanned Silk reenters the body -- *not* from Pig, but from the glass.>> I agree with Patrick here. I've read that scene three or four times now, and I don't see anything that indicates Passilk enters Silk/Horn's mind at this point. There is no change in Silk/Horn's (or Pig's!) demeanor or style of speech, no subtle hint, no nothing. Some have argued that Passilk leaves Pig and then enters Silk/Horn. Bah. Again, no evidence in favor. Against, there is the fact that Horn talks about how if he had brought Pig to Blue, he wouldn't have failed in his mission. When gods de-possess humans, they leave. If Passilk went to Silk/Horn, he'd be gone from Pig, and I think Silk/Horn would know, if only subconsciously, that such a transfer had happened. 2) Horn Lives! < > Though I should add an amusing personal note. Wolfe has read and deeply > appreciates John Clute's > SF Weekly Review of RTTW. Well, that being the case, I must bow and admit that Horn is dead and Silk lives. I was never certain, but I thought a case should be made for the Horn Lives standpoint. I'll have to rethink a few categories...>> I just reread Clute's review and I don't see where it says Horn is dead. "Enfolded," yes, they "write each other," yes. The closest he comes to saying Horn is dead is this: "By spending something like his life (but of course he has been something like dead for most of the trilogy) Horn succeeds in his quest and bids us farewell." I don't think this plus "deeply appreciates" is enough to declare Horn dead. Horn is dead in exactly the sense that Thecla, the old Autarch, and Pas himself are dead: they exist as remnant identities in another medium. Horn indeed bids us farewell at the end of RttW, but so does Silk. 3) Boredom? From: <> (I deeply appreciate this comment, because I do have Windows and Linux on the same box.) But seriously, I take the disquisition by Hoof on how scary Silk was, and Severian's comment that no one would believe him if he wrote about Silk, as a way of expressing how hard it is for Wolfe to write about this character. He may not be so much bored with him as exhausted by him. When you come right down to it, would you rather spend an evening with Silk or with Horn? Wolfe has spent a long time with this scary guy in his head. Which brings up another thought. All of the "Sun" books are concerned to a greater or lesser extent with authorship, writing, publishing, imagining, and most importantly, the effect of having someone else's personality stuck in your head for long periods. These are all the chief day-to-day concerns of the writer, aside from where the next cup of coffee and next paragraph are coming from. I'd love to see someone scan the books to pull these out as a coherent essay. It would be fascinating. As Horn becomes more Silk-like over time, has Wolfe? Wasn't there a reported comment by Wolfe's wife Rosemary that Silk was the character most like Wolfe himself? Dave Lebling aka vizcacha *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *22 Feb 2001, 08:41 · follows David Lebling* > Vizcacha wrote: > I agree with Patrick here. On further thought, so do I. There is no real indicator that (Pas)Silk downloads into Silkhorn at any time. My reasoning was that (1) Silk's spirit was dying, (2) Horn takes over, (3) Afterwards, Silk's spirit seems to be active. But, thinking about it, I believe Silkhorn makes a few of the same kind of confusions before the West Pole as he does after (though I could be wrong; I don't have my copy here at work). What's certain, though, is that there is no clear moment when it happens or could happen. Though... Given the provenance of that scene, would the twins and their wives have known? I dunno. At any rate, there is no direct evidence for a download, of which I am aware. What _is_ clear, though, is that the reason it was so critical to get Pig his e'en, or at least one, was so Silk-in-possession could reintegrate with his Mainframe self -- the reason the narrator says (in OBW? IGJ?) that he couldn't have left Pig blind. *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. --- ### James Jordan *22 Feb 2001, 15:37 · follows Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > At 09:36 AM 2/22/2001 -0500, vizcacha wrote: > I just reread Clute's review and I don't see where it says Horn is dead. > "Enfolded," yes, they "write each other," yes. The closest he comes to > saying Horn is dead is this: "By spending something like his life (but of > course he has been something like dead for most of the trilogy) Horn > succeeds in his quest and bids us farewell." > > I don't think this plus "deeply appreciates" is enough to declare Horn dead. > Horn is dead in exactly the sense that Thecla, the old Autarch, and Pas > himself are dead: they exist as remnant identities in another medium. Horn > indeed bids us farewell at the end of RttW, but so does Silk. Well, I'm happier with such a view. The thought that Horn's last words are "I should not have come back", followed by his departure from this world, makes the trilogy into a real tragedy. Also, I don't understand why Silk, who has never met Seawrack, would want her along on the way to the Whorl (unless all these extended speculations about Hyacinth, Kypris, etc. are valid -- but I'm a bit dubious about them). Nutricious *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. --- ### Alex David Groce *22 Feb 2001, 17:59 · follows James Jordan* Nutria said: > Well, I'm happier with such a view. The thought that Horn's last > words are "I should not have come back", followed by his departure > from this world, makes the trilogy into a real tragedy. Also, I > don't understand why Silk, who has never met Seawrack, would want > her along on the way to the Whorl (unless all these extended > speculations about Hyacinth, Kypris, etc. are valid -- but I'm a bit > dubious about them). in response to vizchaza: > I don't think this plus "deeply appreciates" is enough to declare Horn dead. > Horn is dead in exactly the sense that Thecla, the old Autarch, and Pas > himself are dead: they exist as remnant identities in another medium. Horn > indeed bids us farewell at the end of RttW, but so does Silk. I agree, but not completely. Severian contains multitudes, but I at least don't think that we can say "Severian is Thecla" in quite the same sense we can say "Severian is Severian." And certainly the more ancient personalities within him are less essential to the Severian who writes BOTNS than Severian or Thecla. I think that until Remora's "exorcism," we have a situation analogous to Severian going through the rest of CLAW, SWORD, and CITADEL after the feast with Vodalus saying "I am Thecla. I am not Severian." The first sentence is true, but far from completely true, and the second sentence is false. Mind you, I think that though Severian is Thecla, it is also legitimate to say that Thecla is _dead_. The Thecla in Severian is (like the Horn in Silk) both something more and something less than a ghost. Horn is dead, though something of him lives on in the man he died seeking. Horn can properly fall into the role of a Theclaish presence once Silk is willing to acknowledge his own identity. ``` "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32 -- Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu) Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department 8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. ``` ---