{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1230", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1230, "subject": "Horn Dies", "messages": 17, "voices": 6, "first": "2001-02-26T10:11:24+00:00", "last": "2001-02-27T16:24:27+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2001-02-26T10:11:24+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Horn Dies", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3.2.2 His death is the necessary step that makes it possible\nfor Horn to bring corn back to the starving people of New\nViron -- the Wasteland," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "THANK YOU! It all makes sense to me now. Yes, Horn has died. Got it.\nThank you. I'd missed this.\n\nAnd it raises more thoughts for those of us sympathetic to Wolfe's\nChristian standpoint. Silk's own death/resurrection does seem to lead to a\nshift from animal sacrifices to bread & wine. We don't see this (as I\nrecall) in the Long Sun series, but Olivine is aware of it. But then Horn\nrecapitulates this experience, and comes to be \"in union with Silk,\" and\nsays that the bread and wine he offers with Olivine is \"his\" body and\nblood. Recall that according to Paul in 1 Corinthians, the bread represents\nboth Jesus and ALSO the Church. I now suspect that this is part of what is\ngoing on.\n\nFinally, I strongly suspect that the answer to the question of how the book\nends, one way or another, is that as both Silk and Horn have \"died,\" yet both\ncontinue to live IN SILK'S BODY.\n\nPatera Nutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-02-26T10:22:08+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Horn Dies", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\n... isn't a Return to the World another word for\nresurrection?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know, I know. It's not a wor, it's a phrase.\n\nBlatt, blatt, blatt.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-02-26T10:21:04+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Horn Dies", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "PatRat wrote:\n\n (quoting moi)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3.2.2 His death is the necessary step that makes it possible\nfor Horn to bring corn back to the starving people of New\nViron -- the Wasteland," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "THANK YOU! " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Y'welcome." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, Horn has died. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right -- but he got better. Sort of..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And it raises more thoughts for those of us sympathetic to Wolfe's\nChristian standpoint. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's you, me, and Alex ... is anyone else on this list explicitly \nChristian? (Is _anyone_ but me on this list explicitly Catholic?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk's own death/resurrection does seem to lead to a shift\nfrom animal sacrifices to bread & wine. We don't see this \n(as I recall) in the Long Sun series [...]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I seem to recall (having reread the series in January) \nsomething about Silk deciding not to sacrifice animals \nanymore? Certainly one of the major turning points in his \nown spiritual journey is the decision not to sacrifice Oreb\n(though the decision is sort of, kind of made for him?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But then Horn recapitulates this experience, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'sfunny: Horn's sacrifice in IGJ reminded me very \npowerfully of the Pendragon's supper in THAT HIDEOUS\nSTRENGTH (which itself was apparently designed to recall\nnot only the Passover but a scene in a George MacDonald\nbook I haven't read. Actually, I haven't read any \nMacDonald at all...). I vaguely wonder if this is\ndeliberate. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and comes to be \"in union with Silk,\" and says that \nthe bread and wine he offers with Olivine is \"his\"\nbody and blood. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sounds familiar, eh? 8*)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Recall that according to Paul in 1 Corinthians,\nthe bread represents both Jesus and ALSO the\nChurch. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the Bread becomes (or represents for the heretical\nProtestants in the audience -- JOKING!) the Body of Christ;\nand the Church is also the Body of Christ; the Body of \nChrist is undivided, present whole in each wafer; ergo, \nthe Body of Christ is eating the Body of Christ in order\nto become more closely united with/more like Christ.\n\nWe now return to the question of the Alzabo. Devouring\nThecla's flesh, with the help of that strange creature's\ngland, Severian becomes united with Thecla. Ditto the\ninheritance of the Autarchy. (What would happen, one\nwonders, if a reigning Autarch were accidentally killed\nand devoured at one of the feasts held by Vodalus or his\npredecessors/successors? A whole lot of Autarchs at once?)\n\nSo ... Is little Severian's father actually present in\nthe alzabo? [Does an alzabo have Severian's-father-nature?\nFive pounds of flax.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I now suspect that this is part of what is going on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been looking for this sort of connection in Wolfe for\n-- gulp! -- goin' on 20 years now -- I read SWORD within \ndays of its hitting the shelves & the resonance of Typhon's\ntemptation of Severian was so blatant that I wound up going\nback and noticing \"Oh, he brings back the dead, he turns\nwater into wine ... Duh ...\" So when I see bread in close\nproximity to wine, the connection is there.\n\nMore fun for me, in many ways, is noticing Wolfe's non-\nBiblical sources -- for example, Silk as a pretty darned\nblatant hommage or pastiche or whatever of GKC's Father \nBrown. (I strongly suspect that Chesterton stands to \nWolfe much as MacDonald is Lewis: \"I fancy that I have \nnever written a book in which I did not quote MacDonald.\") " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Finally, I strongly suspect that the answer to the\nquestion of how the book ends, one way or another,\nis that as both Silk and Horn have \"died,\" yet both\ncontinue to live IN SILK'S BODY." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bingo.\n\nAnd isn't a Return to the World another word for\nresurrection?\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2001-02-26T15:02:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Horn Dies", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blattid:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's you, me, and Alex ... is anyone else on this list explicitly\nChristian? (Is _anyone_ but me on this list explicitly Catholic?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am, and as a fairly recent convert should probably be expected to be\nobnoxious about it or something..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More fun for me, in many ways, is noticing Wolfe's non- Biblical\nsources -- for example, Silk as a pretty darned blatant hommage or\npastiche or whatever of GKC's Father Brown. (I strongly suspect that\nChesterton stands to Wolfe much as MacDonald is Lewis: \"I fancy that\nI have never written a book in which I did not quote MacDonald.\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Although, unless I missed something (which seems fairly certain),\nthere is nothing that yells \"G. K.\" in BOTNS itself.\n\n\nOn a sidenote: even if the Horn in SilkHorn is a Thecla-ish ghost, is\nit really that hard to understand why Nettle goes back to the Whorl,\neven if she sees our narrator purely as Silk? She is a widow whose\nchildren are grown (two have married, one has left the planet, for\ngoodness' sake). She's also the coauthor of the Book of Silk. Silk\nshows up. She and Horn left one world because Silk told them to, is\nthis not perhaps an easier trip to make, to return \"home\"?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-02-26T13:14:08+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Horn Dies", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alex wrote:\nBlattid:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's you, me, and Alex ... is anyone else on this list explicitly\nChristian? (Is _anyone_ but me on this list explicitly Catholic?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, which is why I put \"and Alex\" in the paragraph you quoted 8*)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and as a fairly recent convert should probably be expected\nto be obnoxious about it or something..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Obnoxious, no, but I think we need a little more participation \nthat focuses on the (often explicit) religious side of Mr Wolfe's\nwriting. I often wonder what non-Christians see in him, but then\nI wonder that about Lewis too (and have atheist friends who are\npositively rabid, or rabidly positive, about Narnia, so go figure)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Although, unless I missed something (which seems fairly certain),\nthere is nothing that yells \"G. K.\" in BOTNS itself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dunno. I always thought the identity of the Autarch was sort of\nMan-who-was-Sunday-ish." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On a sidenote: even if the Horn in SilkHorn is a Thecla-ish ghost,\nis it really that hard to understand why Nettle goes back to the\nWhorl, even if she sees our narrator purely as Silk? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it's certainly a good question why -- I think your (deleted)\nexplanations are good, but certainly the Next Generation Lizard-\ndwellers don't go to a great deal of trouble to make it explicit.\n\nI think I'm beginning to agree with those who think Mr Wolfe's \nriddle-me-this writing tactics are getting a bit out of hand.\nI don't want everything spelt out for me, and I appreciate his\nbelief that you shouldn't have to be told something twice -- \nbut most of us grew up on pulp writers and the like, okay?\nMaybe there's a happy medium?\n\nSigh. I love the stuff Mr Wolfe writes about (even the kinda \ngross stuff). I love the way he writes on a word by word, \nsentence by sentence level. I just wish he didn't feel called \nupon to make it so hard to get from the one to the other.\n\n--Dan'l\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2001-02-26T16:26:09+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Horn Dies", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Blattid blatted:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And isn't a Return to the World another word for\nresurrection?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe. Or maybe an ascension, since in some sense \"Silk\" has just been \n\"resurrected.\" In a sense, Horn has \"gone up to heaven\" in answer to the \nprayer for \"daily\" bread. Of course, that definitely mixes the metaphor, \nsince the Whorl is originally Egypt under Pharaoh, from which Moses \ndelivers the people, and even more it is the people of God under the Jewish \nleaders (Ayuntamiento) and Romans (Pas etc.), from which Jesus delivers \nthose who trust Him. At the same time, since Horn goes UP to the Whorl as a \nresult of dying, the Whorl seems to shift into a partial image of heaven. \nSince Old Pas has himself died and been resurrected into New Pas \n(Constantine-like?), the Whorl can shift in (one) of its symbolic meanings \n-- especially since Wolfe is not writing any kind of close allegory anyway.\n\nFWIW: I'm a Reformed (Calvinist) former minister, now theologian; but on \nthe sacramental (real presence, not just symbol) side of that coterie. So, \nI've got no problem with Wolfe's symbolism.\n\nPatera Nutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2001-02-26T17:33:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Horn Dies", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blattid spoke:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's you, me, and Alex ... is anyone else on this list explicitly\nChristian? (Is _anyone_ but me on this list explicitly Catholic?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right, which is why I put \"and Alex\" in the paragraph you quoted 8*)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, I was replying to the \"explicitly Catholic\" part, which wasn't\ntrue when I joined the list, but is now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Obnoxious, no, but I think we need a little more participation that\nfocuses on the (often explicit) religious side of Mr Wolfe's\nwriting. I often wonder what non-Christians see in him, but then I\nwonder that about Lewis too (and have atheist friends who are\npositively rabid, or rabidly positive, about Narnia, so go figure)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of the \"off the list\" Wolfe fans I know, three are Catholic (and one\nof these is only a rather lukewarm Wolfe fan), two Protestant, and\nfive some gamut of atheist, agnostic, non-dogmatic mysticism (don't\nask me), etc., but certainly in Urusula K. LeGuin's category of\n\"definitely NOT Christian.\"\n\nDante, for instance, certainly has his share of great admirers, even\ndevotees, who do not share his theology or metaphysics (Borges frex).\nThe same holds for, say, Eliot (although to a lesser degree, and with\nmore controversy). I would be surprised to find Wolfe fans who don't\nhave the background to place the references at all, though." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvea", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2001-02-26T18:00:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Horn Dies", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "**** On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:21:04 -0800, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" said:\n\nDan'l> That's you, me, and Alex ... is anyone else on this list explicitly\nDan'l> Christian? (Is _anyone_ but me on this list explicitly Catholic?)\n\nI am a Christian, but not a Catholic (though some folks might claim you\nhave to look pretty hard to tell the difference).\n\n**** On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:58:23 -0500, \"Patrick O'Leary\" said:\n\nPatrick> Ok, Horn does indeed exist somehow in Silk at the end. Alga's\nPatrick> comment on Wolfe's PC model of possession is very sound, I\nPatrick> think. But I love the irony: We think we've been reading a book\nPatrick> written by Horn denying he is Silk. And, really, it is a book\nPatrick> written by Silk denying he is Silk.\n\nThere's also a symmetry: BotLS is a book about Silk written by Horn, while\nBotSS is a book about Horn (mostly) written by Silk (mostly).\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Fernando Q. Gouvea \nDepartment of Mathematics Editor, FOCUS and MAA Online\nColby College Mathematical Association of America\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://www.maa.org\nfqgouvea at colby.edu \n==========================================================\n\nTwo percent of zero is almost nothing.\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvea", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2001-02-26T18:00:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Horn Dies", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "**** On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:21:04 -0800, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" said:\n\nDan'l> That's you, me, and Alex ... is anyone else on this list explicitly\nDan'l> Christian? (Is _anyone_ but me on this list explicitly Catholic?)\n\nI am a Christian, but not a Catholic (though some folks might claim you\nhave to look pretty hard to tell the difference).\n\n**** On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:58:23 -0500, \"Patrick O'Leary\" said:\n\nPatrick> Ok, Horn does indeed exist somehow in Silk at the end. Alga's\nPatrick> comment on Wolfe's PC model of possession is very sound, I\nPatrick> think. But I love the irony: We think we've been reading a book\nPatrick> written by Horn denying he is Silk. And, really, it is a book\nPatrick> written by Silk denying he is Silk.\n\nThere's also a symmetry: BotLS is a book about Silk written by Horn, while\nBotSS is a book about Horn (mostly) written by Silk (mostly).\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Fernando Q. Gouvea \nDepartment of Mathematics Editor, FOCUS and MAA Online\nColby College Mathematical Association of America\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://www.maa.org\nfqgouvea at colby.edu \n==========================================================\n\nTwo percent of zero is almost nothing.\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-02-26T15:35:25+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Horn Dies", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Responding to my observation that a \"return to the world\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "might be a resurrection, JaJo wrote:\nMaybe. Or maybe an ascension, since in some sense \"Silk\"\nhas just been \"resurrected.\" In a sense, Horn has \"gone\nup to heaven\" in answer to the prayer for \"daily\" bread. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which lets us mix the symbolism in yet another way -- Horn\nis very much Silk's spiritual son; after the death on Green, \nthe son and the father are one in a rather literal way.\n\nOr: ... Horn-the-Son ascends into Hell (green) and dies there,\nthen reunites with Silk-the-Father. Or: Horn-the-Son must\nascend into the Whorl so that the Silkhorn-the-Spirit might\nreturn and bring the blessing of corn. Or:...\n\nThe point being that I think all these resonances are \nclearly there, but no one is a 'ruling metaphor.'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FWIW: I'm a Reformed (Calvinist) former minister, now theologian; " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When I first fastread this, I read it as meaning: \"I used\nto be a Calvinist minister, but now I've reformed.\" 8*)\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2001-02-26T21:46:58+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Horn dies", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "archy's cousin having t-y-p-e-d:\n\n\n\n\n\nI still think a lot of you are neglecting to factor in Big Daddy Pas in the\nfinal meltdown/merging of Horn and Silk at the series' denoument. In my\nopinion there's at least as much of him as the other two, if not more.\n\nWitness the following exchange between Oreb and Horn:\n\n\"Where did you go, Oreb?\"\n\"Find god.\"\n\"I see. Passilk? I think that's what the surgeon called him. Did you find\nhim, and is that why you returned to me?\"\n\"Find Silk.\" (OBW, 369)\n\nIt sure seems likely to me that M'to, as someone in the direct employ of\nMainframe, would be a little better informed to comment on this than any one\nelse, and even Horn, at one point in IGJ, claims that \"Silk is an aspect of\nPas now.\" (202)\n\nI'd therefore be a little more comfortable with Blattid's symbolic mix above\nif it cited Pas as father, Silk as son (since he's resurrected in the\nflesh), and Horn as Holy Ghost (since it's his spirit that's tossed into the\nmix). That Pas has been redeemed by the incorporation of Silk seems\nirrefutable; we get the sense of a similar transformation in his daughter,\nwho for most of the series is known by the name of a monster (Scylla), but\ngoes to her grave on Urth named as a saint (Cilinia).\n\nAnd yet lest we take this Pas-Silk-Horn troika for something other than it\nreally is--say, the literal embodiment of the Outsider--Wolfe gives us\nQuadrifons, perhaps, at least for the purposes of the SHORT SUN triptych,\nendorsing medieval theologian Peter Lombard's doctrine of quaternity, which\nposits God as a separate entity from the three persons of the Trinity.\n\nRobert Borski\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2001-02-27T00:23:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Horn dies", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Robert Borski wrote:\nAnd yet lest we take this Pas-Silk-Horn troika for something other\nthan it really is--say, the literal embodiment of the\nOutsider--Wolfe gives us Quadrifons, perhaps, at least for the\npurposes of the SHORT SUN triptych, endorsing medieval theologian\nPeter Lombard's doctrine of quaternity, which posits God as a\nseparate entity from the three persons of the Trinity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sounds good. I don't see really where quaternity comes in here,\nthough unless we're, as I don't think Robert is. taking Wolfe to be\nwriting hard-nosed allegory. Robert's notion is another mapping that\nseems clearly intended, but again, there isn't a canonical \"now which\none is the Holy Spirit?\" answer. Some characters might fit the\nquestion well (Mucor, for instance, come to think of it), and others\npoorly (it would require a strange reading to suggest that Sinew \"has\nHoly Spirit nature\").\n\nIt seems to me that Wolfe doesn't use Trinitarian motifs to suggest\nthat these characters _are_ the Trinity in any sense. Just as in New\nSun Severian's miracles, though patterned on Christ, don't make him\nthe Son. On the one hand, seeing Severian's \"imitation of Christ\" is\ncertainly more important to understanding BOTNS than, say, seeing the\nClaudius similarities, but it's not an equation. Is Silk the Son? Is\nSilk Moses? No. Is Pas the Father? No. Nor is Oreb literally the\nHoly Spirit, or Hyacinth the church as the bride of Christ.\n\nThe characters are themselves, but they also act in the patterns of\nthe Christian story (and, though it's less thematically central, they\ngo about taking on the roles of Ulysses and Odin and others as\nwell...) I suspect that Wolfe doesn't even see this necessarily as a\nliterary device. If certain historical events are also the essential\nstory of the universe, it is not a stretch to expect a God who acts in\nhistory to \"retell\" echoes of that story throughout time. Or, as\nChesterton says about God being \"young enough\" to enjoy telling the\nSun to rise every day, not getting bored with it as we would*, Wolfe\nbelieves the Outsider could go on telling stories about exodus, the\nblind seeing, the lame walking, and death and resurrection." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "james.kellar", "address": "james.kellar at quantel.com" }, "date": "2001-02-27T08:50:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Horn Dies", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blattid:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's you, me, and Alex ... is anyone else on this list explicitly\nChristian? (Is _anyone_ but me on this list explicitly Catholic?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "count me in in the Catholic side!\n\nJust a thought - What do you think about the possibility that Wolfe's work is intended, if not to\nconvert people, but at least to make them think more favourably of his own religion?\n\ngerbil\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2001-02-27T08:51:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Horn Dies", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:50 AM 2/27/2001 +0000, you wrote:\nJust a thought - What do you think about the possibility that Wolfe's work \nis intended, if not to\nconvert people, but at least to make them think more favourably of his own \nreligion?\n\ngerbil" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't really think so. Long ago I wrote to ask him if he thought of \nhimself as a Christian writer, and he wrote back to say that no, he is a \nwriter who is a Christian. I don't think \"evangelization\" is part of his \nintention, though I'm sure he'd be happy if it were part of the result. \nBTW, I also asked him, in the light of *Peace,* if he thought of himself in \nany degree as a Southern writer (a la Walker Percy), and he responded by \nsaying he that is more of an urban than a rural writer.\n\nFWIW\n\nPat. Nut.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2001-02-27T09:24:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Horn dies", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:23 AM 2/27/2001 -0500, you wrote:\nThe characters are themselves, but they also act in the patterns of\nthe Christian story (and, though it's less thematically central, they\ngo about taking on the roles of Ulysses and Odin and others as\nwell...) I suspect that Wolfe doesn't even see this necessarily as a\nliterary device. If certain historical events are also the essential\nstory of the universe, it is not a stretch to expect a God who acts in\nhistory to \"retell\" echoes of that story throughout time. Or, as\nChesterton says about God being \"young enough\" to enjoy telling the\nSun to rise every day, not getting bored with it as we would*, Wolfe\nbelieves the Outsider could go on telling stories about exodus, the\nblind seeing, the lame walking, and death and resurrection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is called \"typology,\" and it is the way Christians read the Old \nTestament: various events and sequences of events anticipate by analogy the \nevents in Jesus' life. Similarly, events after Jesus' life reflect \nbackwards the events of His life. No surprise that Wolfe sees things this \nway -- he's doubtless heard many homilies in church along these lines -- \nespecially in a series of novels that are fairly explicitly \"Biblical.\"\n\nPat. Nut. \n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-02-27T09:39:38+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Re: Horn dies", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Robski wrote:\narchy's cousin having t-y-p-e-d:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "why thank you robert\nperhaps i shd try writing that way and\n\n...Naaah.\n\nAnyway, Robert cites my list of resonances, and comments:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I still think a lot of you are neglecting to factor in\nBig Daddy Pas in the final meltdown/merging of Horn and\nSilk at the series' denoument. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree: in my case, because I'm simply not prepared to deal\nwith it yet. Pas' role changes so radically at the end of \nLONG that I'm not quite ready to deal with it, especially as\nit merges into Silkhorn. (Other than the rather grotesque\nobviousness of his being yet another Wolfe character who dies\nand comes back from the dead.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my opinion there's at least as much of him as the other\ntwo, if not more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dunno. The amalgam _talks_ like Silk.\n\n**\n\nRobert then cites this:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Where did you go, Oreb?\"\n\"Find god.\"\n\"I see. Passilk? I think that's what the surgeon called \nhim. Did you find him, and is that why you returned to me?\"\n\"Find Silk.\" (OBW, 369)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like many of Oreb's utterances, these allow of more than one\ninterpretation, but any good interpretation has to allow for\nthe presence of Scylla. What \"god\" would Scylla be looking\nfor? One that could help her with her little problem -- ideally,\nthe Mother, though perhaps she isn't yet aware that the Mother\nexists as such. I would say the most obvious, if not necessarily\nthe best, intepretation is this: Scylla-in-Oreb went looking \nfor a place where she could download (\"Find god\"), didn't find \nit, and returned to Silk{Pas}Horn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ".. even Horn, ... claims that \"Silk is an aspect of Pas now.\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um... _who_ makes that claim? Isn't that Passilkhorn or \nwhatever? And what does it mean in this case for Silk to be an\naspect of Pas? I might be wrong, but the impression I got (from \nthe exchange with Kypris in _Exodus_) was that Pas was too \ndamaged to completely resurrect from the hidden pieces -- perhaps\ntoo many of them were lost. He couldn't build a complete or \nunified identity. So he wanted (or Kypris wanted it for him) to\nupload Silk as a whole identity, and then merge the pieces of \nPas into that. The resultant would, I think, actually be more\nSilk than Pas -- Silk with bits of Pas merged in. [O'course, Pas \nbeing a very dominant person, this probably wouldn't be quite so\nsmooth...] " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd therefore be a little more comfortable with Blattid's\nsymbolic mix above if it cited Pas as father, Silk as son\n(since he's resurrected in the flesh), and Horn as Holy Ghost " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then for heavens' sake, include it! I said, and you even quoted," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... I think all these resonances are \nclearly there, but no one is a 'ruling metaphor.'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...which means that there is plenty of room for yet other\nresonances, including the one you cite. Once put in front\nof me, it's a perfectly obvious and good resonance. \n\nObservation, though: all three (Passilkhorn) have, in one\nsense or another, died and been resurrected in the flesh, \n-- in the same flesh, in fact -- Silk's. I would hesitantly\nsuggest that no human character in Wolfe is likely to be\na strong representation of either the Father or the Spirit;\nCatholicism and Christianity in general suggests that we\nimitate Christ, not His altar-egoes.\n\n[...sorry...]\n\nI would say, then, that we look to the Outsider as always\nthe Father-figure in these books; various human characters\nas Son-figures; and anything, but especially anything not-\nhuman that seems to in some way dispense Grace (as Oreb) \nas Spirit-figures." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And yet lest we take this Pas-Silk-Horn troika for\nsomething other than it really is--say, the literal\nembodiment of the Outsider--Wolfe gives us Quadrifons,\nperhaps, at least for the purposes of the SHORT SUN triptych,\nendorsing medieval theologian Peter Lombard's doctrine of\nquaternity, which posits God as a separate entity from the\nthree persons of the Trinity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Most_ unlikely. As a Catholic, Wolfe is likely to buy into\nlarge chunks of Thomism; in particular, one might check into\nthe Summa Contra Gentiles, sections 1.18ff., that God is His\nown Essence and that Essence and Existence are one in God.\n\n(Oy. Thomistic existentialism. Any Maritain fans in the \naudience? and if so, why?)\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "james.kellar", "address": "james.kellar at quantel.com" }, "date": "2001-02-27T16:24:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Horn Dies", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:50 AM 2/27/2001 +0000, I wrote:\nJust a thought - What do you think about the possibility that Wolfe's work\nis intended, if not to\nconvert people, but at least to make them think more favourably of his own\nreligion?\n\ngerbil" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and then Nutria replied" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't really think so. Long ago I wrote to ask him if he thought of\nhimself as a Christian writer, and he wrote back to say that no, he is a\nwriter who is a Christian. I don't think \"evangelization\" is part of his\nintention, though I'm sure he'd be happy if it were part of the result.\nBTW, I also asked him, in the light of *Peace,* if he thought of himself in\nany degree as a Southern writer (a la Walker Percy), and he responded by\nsaying he that is more of an urban than a rural writer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That makes sense. I suppose that, from the point of view of a writer, Catholicism is a good\n background to be coming from as there's such a rich variety of symbolism to draw on!\n\n\n\n\n\ngerbil\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }