{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1236", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1236, "subject": "women, memory, and stuff", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2001-02-27T05:16:02+00:00", "last": "2001-02-27T08:58:55+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "shannon wilde", "address": "swilde_99 at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2001-02-27T05:16:02+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) women, memory, and stuff", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello all! I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt\nsomewhat irked by RttW. The lists have been helping\nme get some things (like narrators) somewhat\nstraightened out. Thanks, as ever.\n\nMr. Groce wondered why Nettle returned to Whorl, what\nwith her wife-and-mother duties being over. Well,\nunWolfeish as it sounds, maybe it was to pursue her\ncareer! As a writer and editor, she sure beats either\nHorn or, apparently, Silk. The Book of Nettle, set\nduring and after the upcoming voyage-that could be\npretty neat. And an awfully big change for Wolfe, not\nknown for overwhelming compassion towards female\ncharacters. Maybe he finds it more acceptable for\nwomen to \"find themselves\" after they have worked off\ntheir Original Sin Duties. (Sorry, that wasn't nice,\nbut I don't think it was unwarranted.) I found the\ncontrasts in his treatment of women throughout LS and\nSS very odd, (especially Chenille and Mucor) so maybe\nhe was experimenting to a purpose. OK, maybe not...;)\n\nAlso, quick aside on the topic of memory and identity.\n I don't know if Wolfe necessarily provides answers re\ntheir function as part of the soul (whatever that\nis:)). But when I reread the Soldier books I'm always\nastounded by the portrayal of the hellish torment and\nconfusion of losing one's short-term memory. It\n_does_ feel as if one is losing one's soul, or has\nlost it. And maybe one does, or at least misplaces it.\n I especially appreciated the depiction of the\nemotionality resulting from Latro's slow recovery. \nWolfe was dead on target there, and I'm inclined to\ntrust his judgment in the identity shell game in\nLS/SS.* Now, if I could just comprehend it! Looking\nforward to your posts,\n \n-Shannon\n\n*I except the Oreb/Scylla merger. That just felt cheap." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2001-02-27T08:58:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) women, memory, and stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 05:16 AM 2/27/2001 -0800, you wrote:\nMr. Groce wondered why Nettle returned to Whorl, what\nwith her wife-and-mother duties being over. Well,\nunWolfeish as it sounds, maybe it was to pursue her\ncareer! As a writer and editor, she sure beats either\nHorn or, apparently, Silk. The Book of Nettle, set\nduring and after the upcoming voyage-that could be\npretty neat. And an awfully big change for Wolfe, not\nknown for overwhelming compassion towards female\ncharacters. Maybe he finds it more acceptable for\nwomen to \"find themselves\" after they have worked off\ntheir Original Sin Duties. (Sorry, that wasn't nice,\nbut I don't think it was unwarranted.) I found the\ncontrasts in his treatment of women throughout LS and\nSS very odd, (especially Chenille and Mucor) so maybe\nhe was experimenting to a purpose. OK, maybe not...;)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " We've discussed this on Urth a while back, as I recall. I think \nthe consensus was that Wolfe is about as mean to his male characters as to \nhis female ones, on balance. As for Original Sin, remember that \"In Adam's \nfall we sinn-ed all.\" Yes, Eve bit the \"appil\" first, but it was Adam's \nfault mainly. The notion that the woman led the man into sin part of \nlow-level superstition, found here and there to be sure, but Wolfe is way \ntoo knowledgeable for that kind of stuff. The New Testament is clear that \nit was Adam's doing, and that the woman was tricked, while the man acted \nwith full knowledge of what he was doing. The reason for this goes back to \nGenesis 2, where Adam was told not to eat the fruit before Eve was made. \nThus, Adam had first-hand knowledge of the prohibition, while Eve's was \nsecond-hand. There's more, but that's enough.\n\nPat. Nut.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }