{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1240", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1240, "subject": "Digest whorl.v012.n066", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-02-27T11:12:32+00:00", "last": "2001-02-27T18:01:05+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Christopher Culver", "address": "new_sun at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2001-02-27T18:01:05+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n066", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the record, I'm Catholic. I was an atheist when I was younger, but \nGraham Greene's novel _The Power and the Glory_ and a great deal of prayer \nbrought me into the Church. The BotNS had its part in that whole process, \ntoo, especially such things as Severian's epiphany beside Ocean.\n\ngerbil wrote:\n<>\n\nAlthough that was addressed to Blattid, I'd like to add my own two cents.\n\nThe Catholic elements in Wolfe's works are almost entirely concerned with \nthe sacraments, and with the relationship between *individuals* and the \nPancreator. There are none of the \"political\" elements that make the Church \nunpleasant for many non-Catholics. It is the Catholic (universal) Church not \nbecause it has a universal presence among (and responsibility to) the human \ncommunity, but because the sacraments are represented everywhere in the \nuniverse, bound to natural law. Issues of Church hierarchy, and that whole \nsupreme pontiff thing that makes many critics unsatisfied with Catolicism, \nare not present in Wolfe's work. With such a technique, Wolfe can't help but \nmake Catholicism look a little more palatable.\n\nChristopher CULVER " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-02-27T11:12:32+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n066", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "CC wrote:\nFor the record, I'm Catholic. I was an atheist when \nI was younger..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Innarestin. Three RCs in the group, and we're all adult \nconverts. Do we have enough data points to establish a \npattern? Is there a cradle Catholic in the group? (Even \nbetter, an \"adult survivor of Catholicism\" as one friend\ncalls himself?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The BotNS had its part in that whole process, too,\nespecially such things as Severian's epiphany beside Ocean." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, man, you just picked my probably favorite scene in\nall of Wolfe. \"I took off my boots and cast them into\nthe sea, so that I might not walk shod on sacred ground.\"\nWow...\n\nFWIW, I was already a(n unChurched) Christian when I\nread tBotNS, but I wouldn't be surprised if that scene\nplayed its part in my journey to Rome." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Catholic elements in Wolfe's works are almost\nentirely concerned with the sacraments, and with the\nrelationship between *individuals* and the Pancreator. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd state it differently: The religious (and specifically\nCatholic) elements in Mr Wolfe's work are concerned \nprimarily with the Sacraments, the soteriological \n\"process,\" and the imitatio christi, especially when the\nindividual is not aware of it. (One might compare on \nthis level Flannery O'Connor, and especially WISE BLOOD.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are none of the \"political\" elements that make\nthe Church unpleasant for many non-Catholics. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As an amateur apologist, I have to say that there's a lot \nmore than politics that many non-Catholics, and especially \nnon-Catholic Christians, find troubling in Catholicism; \nthere are some fairly deep theological issues that separate\nCatholicism, and eastern Orthodoxy, from the Protestant\nchurches. (Not to mention the Protestant churches from \neach other...) In fact, it's been my experience that non-\nChristians who are incredibly hostile to Protestant \nchurches often admit to a soft spot for Catholicism -- \npossibly because, at least in this country, Catholicism\ntends less toward in-yer-face evangelization." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is the Catholic (universal) Church not because it\nhas a universal presence among (and responsibility to)\nthe human community, but because the sacraments are\nrepresented everywhere in the universe, bound to\nnatural law. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bingo on the antecedent, but I think you're mistaken to \nnegate the precedent. In fact, the Catechism (CCC) that \nwas issued a few years ago claims all humanity as part \nof the church, separated in various degrees. Or something\nlike that.\n\nI think one of Wolfe's most awesome accomplishments is\nthe way the SUN books seem to dramatize the working-out\nof Christ's salvific work in people who have never even\nheard of Him.\n\n[Irrelevantly he asked: Does anybody out there remember\nScott Card's \"Secular Humanist Revival Meetings?\"\n\tPastor Scott: Do you BELIEVE?!?!\n\t Audients: Yes, we BELIEVE!!!\n\tPastor Scott: No, no, no... You're supposed to\n\t say \"In what?\"\n]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Issues of Church hierarchy, and that whole supreme\npontiff thing that makes many critics unsatisfied\nwith Catolicism, are not present in Wolfe's work. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I think it's worth thinking this through again.\nThe structure of the Chapter in SHORT is clearly based\nheavily on the Catholic clergy; and there is _some_ kind\nof religious hierarchy on Urth, though we don't quite\nfind out what it is.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2001-02-27T15:10:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n066", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blattid said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FWIW, I was already a(n unChurched) Christian when I read tBotNS,\nbut I wouldn't be surprised if that scene played its part in my\njourney to Rome." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd say Wolfe was pretty instrumental in my conversion (raised\nSouthern Baptist) as well. Wolfe introduced me to Chesterton, and\nthen I began to say \"you know, these Catholics can write,\" and sought\nout O'Connor, Waugh, Spark, Percy, and Newman.\n\n\nNutria said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't really think so. Long ago I wrote to ask him if he thought\nof himself as a Christian writer, and he wrote back to say that no,\nhe is a writer who is a Christian. I don't think \"evangelization\" is\npart of his intention, though I'm sure he'd be happy if it were part\nof the result. BTW, I also asked him, in the light of *Peace,* if\nhe thought of himself in any degree as a Southern writer (a la\nWalker Percy), and he responded by saying he that is more of an\nurban than a rural writer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. I don't see PEACE as a Southern novel. There is the\nscene at Grandfather's house, and the Gothic of Smart's story (anyway,\nFlorida isn't really \"the South,\" Florida is its own little terra\nincognita) but those are definitely set in a \"foreign\" place, not\n\"home.\" However, I gave a copy to a friend for Christmas, and she's\nhalted her reading because it brings to mind \"many bad memories of\nself-forced readings in high school of faulkner before i was ready.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }