{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1268", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1268, "subject": "Mother Godspeak", "messages": 6, "voices": 4, "first": "2001-03-12T23:39:35+00:00", "last": "2001-03-15T12:59:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2001-03-12T23:39:35+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Mother Godspeak", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam S., in a non-confused mode, professing:\n\n\n\nHow then do you reconcile this with Horn stating, \"I asked the Greater\nScylla on the Red Sun Whorl how I could find Seawrack again. She told me how\nto communicate with her sister here.\"\n\nIn other words, if I understand you properly, Horn has to go all the way\nback to Urth and find out from the \"Greater\" Scylla how to communicate with\nher \"sister,\" the Mother? So the Greater Scylla can speak Neighborese? Where\nthe hell did _she_ learn it? The Berlitz Teach-Yourself-Neighbor in 10 Days\nor Less? (I tried ordering a copy from Amazon.com, but they're currently\nout.)\n\nSorry, but I still don't understand how the Mother, Silk or Seawrack\ncomprehends the language of the Vanished People.\n\nRobert Borski\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-03-13T22:06:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Mother Godspeak", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 3/12/01 11:39 PM, Robert Borski at rborski at charter.net wrote:\nAdam S., in a non-confused mode, professing:\n\n\n\nHow then do you reconcile this with Horn stating, \"I asked the Greater\nScylla on the Red Sun Whorl how I could find Seawrack again. She told me how\nto communicate with her sister here.\"\n\nIn other words, if I understand you properly, Horn has to go all the way\nback to Urth and find out from the \"Greater\" Scylla how to communicate with\nher \"sister,\" the Mother? So the Greater Scylla can speak Neighborese? Where\nthe hell did _she_ learn it? The Berlitz Teach-Yourself-Neighbor in 10 Days\nor Less? (I tried ordering a copy from Amazon.com, but they're currently\nout.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not quite clear what your point is. It seems you either believe that\nthe Mother only speaks the Neighbors' languague, so Horn would have to know\nit to communicate with her, or you think my position implies this. But\nMother talks to Horn in OBW, when she \"transfers\" Seawrack to him. (This is\nbefore any possible admixture of Pas, if you were going to argue that Horn\nhas translated the Mother's words from the Neighbors' language without\ntelling us.) What the Greater Scylla taught Horn was how to summon the\nMother, as Alex David Gorce says." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry, but I still don't understand how the Mother, Silk or Seawrack\ncomprehends the language of the Vanished People." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Mother learned it from the Neighbors. She could have learned it from\nNeighbors she had saved or abducted as she did Seawrack, or from\neavesdropping on sailors, to give just two possibilities.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2001-03-14T13:53:26+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Mother Godspeak", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\n\nAdam and Alex:\n\nAll right, let me try to state this as simply as I can.\n\nCall me an ignoramus* by default, but I still do not understand how the\nGreater Scylla of Urth knows how to summon the Mother of Blue _in any\nlanguage._\n\nWe're all of us a little chagrined, I believe, by the use of coinicidences\nin Wolfe's fiction--e.g., Horn randomly picking to disinter Jahlee, who just\nhappens to be the mother of Krait. Such coincidences seem unnatural and\nforced when confined to a small enough (relative scale) venue like an entire\nplanet. But to have the Whorl travel over 300 years, put into orbit around\ntwin planets, land colonists, and then learn that one of the indigenous\ngoddesses of Blue can be summoned by a sea monster from the Whorl's original\npoint of destination seems more than a little incredible to me. Ditto for\nthe Mother's matching retinue of sirens, underwater boats, and \"feignings.\"\nIs she, like the Scylla of Urth, plotting to take over Blue? Seems like\nrather a poor choice given the the Neighbor's abandonment of the planet, and\ncertainly the Whorl colonists do not seem like any rich prize. So why is she\nstill hanging around? Yes, I suppose it's possible that all these various\nalien beings speak a kind of space esperanto, as Alex suggests, but this\nseems to me a little bit like Star Trek, where everybody except the Klingons\nspeak English. And I don't really see any evidence for it.\n\nNow if Horn had employed his ring to summon up a few of his Neighbor\nfriends, and they told him how to summon the Mother, that I would buy; but\nto have Horn make the astral journey back to Urth, however many\nlight-or-dream years away it is, and then be told by Greater Scylla how to\nsummon up sister-of-convenience-the-Mother seems more far fetched than I'm\never going to be willing to accept. But I guess that's just me, apparently.\n\n*Any of you Christian scholars know who once claimed that ignoramus was the\nLatin word for agnostic? I've forgotten.\n\nRobert Borski\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-03-15T10:07:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Mother Godspeak", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 3/14/01 1:53 PM, Robert Borski at rborski at charter.net wrote:\n\n\nCall me an ignoramus* by default, but I still do not understand how the\nGreater Scylla of Urth knows how to summon the Mother of Blue _in any\nlanguage._\n\nWe're all of us a little chagrined, I believe, by the use of coinicidences\nin Wolfe's fiction--e.g., Horn randomly picking to disinter Jahlee, who just\nhappens to be the mother of Krait. Such coincidences seem unnatural and\nforced when confined to a small enough (relative scale) venue like an entire\nplanet. But to have the Whorl travel over 300 years, put into orbit around\ntwin planets, land colonists, and then learn that one of the indigenous\ngoddesses of Blue can be summoned by a sea monster from the Whorl's original\npoint of destination seems more than a little incredible to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may not be a coincidence. We know that Cilinia had pledged herself to\nthe Greater Scylla, who undoubtedly knew of her sister's presence on Blue.\nCilinia could have somehow convinced or tricked Typhon into choosing\nBlue/Green as the Whorl's destination.\n\nIn any case, this has nothing to do with my original point that Typhon\ndoesn't need to have been a Neighbor for Horn to be able to translate\nSeawrack's song." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now if Horn had employed his ring to summon up a few of his Neighbor\nfriends, and they told him how to summon the Mother, that I would buy; but\nto have Horn make the astral journey back to Urth, however many\nlight-or-dream years away it is, and then be told by Greater Scylla how to\nsummon up sister-of-convenience-the-Mother seems more far fetched than I'm\never going to be willing to accept. But I guess that's just me, apparently." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What, then, is your interpretation of Horn's statement \"I asked the Greater\nScylla on the Red Sun Whorl how I could find Seawrack again. She taught me\nhow to communicate with her sister here\"? It can't be that Scylla taught\nHorn to speak the Neighbors' language, as your earlier post seemed to imply,\nbecause:\n\n1) Horn doesn't need to speak the Neighbors' language to communicate with\nthe Mother;\n\n2) According to your reading Horn already knew the Neighbors' language (and\nin any case the translation scene was prior to the meeting with Greater\nScylla).\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "George Terry", "address": "gmterry at ucdavis.edu" }, "date": "2001-03-15T08:24:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Mother Godspeak", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*Any of you Christian scholars know who once claimed that ignoramus was the\nLatin word for agnostic? I've forgotten." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "C.H. Spurgeon, I think.\n\n\n**************************************************************************\nGeorge Terry\nComputer Resource Specialist\nCenter for Engineering Plants for Resistance Against Pathogens\n(CEPRAP)\nUniversity of California, Davis\n(530)752-6531\ngmterry at ucdavis.edu\n**************************************************************************\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2001-03-15T12:59:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Mother Godspeak", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "George Terry wrote:\n*Any of you Christian scholars know who once claimed that ignoramus was the\nLatin word for agnostic? I've forgotten." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "C.H. Spurgeon, I think." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A quick google for \"ignoramus and agnostic\" confirms that George is\nalmost certainly right." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }