{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1270", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1270, "subject": "Heads; Scylla; Four Eyes", "messages": 7, "voices": 5, "first": "2001-03-13T12:13:05+00:00", "last": "2001-03-15T22:27:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2001-03-13T12:13:05+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Heads; Scylla; Four Eyes", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First up, re the Neighbors having two heads: of course, I misread my own\nargument from my original post about Pas-as-alien (\"Typhon's Home: Pas as\nNeighbor,\" Vol. 11). What I failed to notice in my haste to post was the\nfollowing parenthetical aside I made, where I actually get things right:\n\"Both Typhon and the Neighbors bear doubled body parts (heads vs. limbs).\" I\nnow stand eagerly corrected and my thanks to the legion of you who pointed\nout the error of my ways.\n\nAlex Groce then having written:\n\n<(*) Well, she's her \"sister.\" I take it that Abaia, Erebus, Scylla, etc.\nare all definitely space-travelers. So if it is a common language that's the\nissue here, they might have both learned Neighbor from their \"Fodor's\nBlue/Green System for Great Old Ones\" or Neighbor may be linguistically\nderived from the tongue of the Space Monsters.>\n\nI agree with you about Abaia and Erebus being space travelers, but the\nScylla you're talking about is not from beyond Urth, she's Pas's daughter\nCilinia, who's secretly joined the undersea cabal pre-launch. As Horn tells\nus near the end of RETURN, talking about Oreb/Scylla, \"The Scylla we see is\nno more than a sketch of the original Scylla, of the daughter of the tyrant\nwho assumed the name Typhon, the daughter who had pledged herself in secret\nto one of the gods of the Short Sun Whorl that would in time become our Red\nSun Whorl. It was a a form of treason, of rebellion against her father.\"\nIt's this Scylla (the \"Greater\") who's apparently left behind when young\nCilinia/Scylla is scanned into the Whorl's computers (the same way\nTyphon-Piaton is). I'm therefore not sure she's ever had the chance to\ntravel widely on a galactic basis, nor how she's able to explain to Horn how\nto contact the Mother, who, we know (because of Seawrack's ring and\notherwise) is allied with the Neighbors. I doubt that your theory about\nNeighbor being the lingua franca of the Great Lords is correct.\n\nInteresting to note how Cilinia's rebelliousness carries over into her\nMainframe avatar, and perhaps she is even the instigator of the revolt.\n\nInsect-eyed blattid subsequently opining:\n\n\n\nKinda makes you wonder how this works with, er, a creature's more fun parts,\ndon't it?\n\nAlso: I'm still waiting for someone to explain Babbie's spectacles. No\ntakers?\n\nRobert Borski\n\n\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2001-03-13T14:28:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Heads; Scylla; Four Eyes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Robert wrote:\nI agree with you about Abaia and Erebus being space travelers, but\nthe Scylla you're talking about is not from beyond Urth, she's Pas's\ndaughter Cilinia, who's secretly joined the undersea cabal\npre-launch. As Horn tells us near the end of RETURN, talking about\nOreb/Scylla, \"The Scylla we see is no more than a sketch of the\noriginal Scylla, of the daughter of the tyrant who assumed the name\nTyphon, the daughter who had pledged herself in secret to one of the\ngods of the Short Sun Whorl that would in time become our Red Sun\nWhorl. It was a a form of treason, of rebellion against her father.\"\nIt's this Scylla (the \"Greater\") who's apparently left behind when\nyoung Cilinia/Scylla is scanned into the Whorl's computers (the same\nway Typhon-Piaton is). I'm therefore not sure she's ever had the\nchance to travel widely on a galactic basis, nor how she's able to\nexplain to Horn how to contact the Mother, who, we know (because of\nSeawrack's ring and otherwise) is allied with the Neighbors. I doubt\nthat your theory about Neighbor being the lingua franca of the Great\nLords is correct." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Several points here. It's not really my theory that Neighbor is their\nlanguage. I am unconvinced that the \"how to communicate with...\" is\nabout teaching a language at all. I'm thinking more the equivalent of\na summoning method.\n\nAlso, unless I am mistaken, you're mixing up Scyllas, or perhaps your\ntheory conflates them more than is needed. In my opinion, Great\nScylla is a Abaia/Erebus type monster, on Urth prior to Cilinia's\nbirth. Cilinia takes this creature's name as part of her treason.\nThe original Scylla is NOT the daughter of the tyrant, but the space\nmonster. The daughter of the tyrant (as you even say above) betrays\nDaddy by going over to the creature's side.\n\nIt is this Great Scylla, who is not Pas's daughter or her scanned\nimage, that I am talking about knowing this language. I think this\nScylla is quite plausibly a space traveler. I don't see any evidence\nfor the idea that young Cilinia becomes the monster herself (she\nbetrays Daddy by going over to her future self's side? Not utterly\nridiculous, given that time travel is possible here, but still not\neven remotely supported.) The real Cilinia is buried in a tomb that\nher astral self eventually goes to also, rather than roaming the seas\nwith her siren spawn." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2001-03-13T21:47:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Heads; Scylla; Four Eyes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:13 PM 3/13/2001 -0600, you wrote:\nAlso: I'm still waiting for someone to explain Babbie's spectacles. No\ntakers?\n\nRobert Borski" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nonono! We want YOU to explain it. And then we'll leap upon you like \narctothers and shred you to pieces.\n\nNutria (Slavering, Drooling Rat)\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2001-03-13T22:39:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Heads; Scylla; Four Eyes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:47 PM 3/13/2001 -0600, I wrote:\nAt 12:13 PM 3/13/2001 -0600, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also: I'm still waiting for someone to explain Babbie's spectacles. No\ntakers?\n\nRobert Borski" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nonono! We want YOU to explain it. And then we'll leap upon you like \narctothers and shred you to pieces.\n\nNutria (Slavering, Drooling Rat)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, to be NICE about it, I just thought that since Babbie is appearing as \na human being, the only way his four eyes could be expressed was as a man \nwith glasses, which people are called \"four-eyes\" in American slang, and I \nthought Wolfe was just making a bit of a joke.\n\nNice Nutria, who started being \"Old Four-Eyes\" at about the age of 45.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2001-03-13T23:49:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Heads; Scylla; Four Eyes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:13 PM -0600 3/13/01, Robert Borski wrote:\nAlso: I'm still waiting for someone to explain Babbie's spectacles. No\ntakers?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a joke!\n\nAs you quoted in an earlier message:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:19 PM -0600 3/12/01, Robert Borski wrote:\n\"Our boat was water, and Babbie was a hairy man with thick arms and real big\nshoulders, and glasses, and a couple of Babbie's eyes (the little ones).\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Babbie has more than two eyes, that's plain. It is consistent with \nthe \"doubling\" of other parts of Bluvian creatures (thanks Blattid) \nthat Babbie has four eyes. A man wearing glasses also has \"four eyes.\"\n\nI am sure this has occurred to all of you but you thought, \"This \ncan't be what Wolfe really intends here!\" Well, I think it is what he \nintends. Anyone who can put a scene where Puss-in-Boots kills Mickey \nMouse* into _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_ (even if it is a \nhallucination) is capable of anything.\n\n*Yes, I will provide a reference for this scene, if anyone asks me to.\n\nWilliam Ansley\n\nPS. Hmmmm... Babbie has four (or possibly more) eyes of different \nsizes, eight limbs and is covered with bristles. Is Blue the planet \nof the giant arachnids?\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-03-14T07:53:27+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Re: Heads; Scylla; Four Eyes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also: I'm still waiting for someone to explain Babbie's\nspectacles. No takers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a joke!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What them guys said. Sometime I think I'll have to do a miniarticle\non Lupine humor -- there's a LOT of it, but it's usually subtle and\noften goes unnoticed until the fifth or so reading. (This kind of\n\"analysis\" can bring it out sooner, tho'.) \n\nWolfe's humor reminds me, more than a little, of the subtler death \njokes in the ALICE books, as when Alice, falling down the rabbit\nhole, remarks that \"after a fall like this, I shall think nothing\nof a tumble down the stairs. In fact, if I fell off the roof, I\nshould say nothing at all\" -- to which the narrator adds, \"Which \nwas probably true; or as when, being advised by Humpty-Dumpty that\nshe should have stopped (aging) at six, she remarks \"One can't,\nyou know,\" and Humpty-Dumpty: \"One can't, perhaps, but I daresay\nwith the right help you could have managed it.\" [All quotes by\nmemory & probably misworded but accurate as to intent.]\n\nAnyway, that sort of thing, where you don't necessarily catch\nit on the first or even third reading but suddenly it hits you\nWHAM and you find yourself giggling embarassingly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bluvian creatures (thanks Blattid)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it was that or \"Bluish,\" and that's already taken by the\narch-enemies of Pepperland." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*Yes, I will provide a reference for this scene, if anyone\nasks me to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I'm asking.\n\n--Dan'l\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2001-03-15T22:27:14+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Re: Heads; Scylla; Four Eyes", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 7:53 AM -0800 3/14/01, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n > *Yes, I will provide a reference for this scene, if anyone\n asks me to.\n\nOkay, I'm asking." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here is the passage, courtesy of Adam Stephanides, quoted from the \nUrth archives:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " _Later._ For a moment I thought I saw my cat flying like a shadow in\nthe dark, and I wondered if she were really dead, though I broke her neck.\nThe day before I found the burial cave for him, she brought me a little\nanimal and laid it at my feet. I told her that she was a good cat and\ncould eat it herself, but she only said, \"My master, the Marquis of\nCarabas, sends you greetings.\" And disappeared again. The little animal\nhad a pointed snout and round ears, but its teeth were the even, biting\nteeth of a human being, and it smiled in its agony." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is on p. 247 of the Orb paperback edition, very near the end of the book.\n\nHere is some of what Adam and I said about it back in June 1998.\n\nAdam:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) I take it this is a dream or hallucination, since even if the cat is an\nAnnese, there's no reason for her to be quoting \"Puss in Boots.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To me, at least, the little animal is obviously Mickey Mouse (or possible\none of the other, similar cartoon mice with pointed snouts, round ears and\nsquare human teeth). Wolfe definitely has Mickey on his mind from time to\ntime; witness the story \"Three Fingers\" in _The Island of Doctor Death and\nOther Stories and Other Stories_.\n\nSo, I think this passage is, more or less completely, a joke." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmmm. I guess I think everything Wolfe writes is a joke. Hey, now \nI've got a new hypothesis!\n\nWilliam Ansley\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }