{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1277", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1277, "subject": "mechAnIsm of consciousness", "messages": 6, "voices": 4, "first": "2001-03-20T15:15:17+00:00", "last": "2001-03-22T11:52:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-03-20T15:15:17+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) mechAnIsm of consciousness", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the [correct/best/proper] explanation of (eg) Rose's \n[memories/personality/consciousness/soul] \n[infiltrating into/integrating with] [that/those] of \npMarble/Molybdenum] may be simpler than what [Shellac/Dan P]\n[suggests/proposes]. \n\nWho is to say, in a universe where [souls are (in some sense) \ndemonstrable fact/consciousness can (apparently) exist \nindependently of hardware], that the brain is the [sole/primary] \nseat of [soul/consciousness/memory/personality]? It makes a kind \nof sense that [it is/they are] [more distributed/less local] in \nthe nervous system and perhaps other [organs/parts of the \norganism/tissues], particularly if one accepts that [it is/they\nare] at least partially [spiritual/non-physical/supernatural] in\n[nature/origin/constitution]. Then a(n) [organ/part/tissue] which\nhas spent a significant time in one body, even if it is not an\noriginal [component/part] of that body, [may/will] \"house\" some\n[aspect/part/holographic image] of the \n[soul/memory/personalty/consciousness] [inhabiting/controlling]\nthat body and, when [transferred/transplanted] to a [new/different]\nbody may carry that [aspect/part/holographic image] to the \n[new/different] body.\n\nOn the contrary, allowing that \"souls\" specifically are \n[non-physical/spiritual/supernatural] in [cosntitution/nature]\nallows us to [suppose/believe/conjecture] that \"souls\" may\nhabituate to their bodies (as they may habituate to a location,\ngiving rise to phenomena such as Pike's ghost), and \"hang around\"\nremaininf functional [parts/organs/tissues] of the body after \nthe death of the body proper, so that whatever aspect of \n[memory/personality/consciousness] attaches to the \"soul\" rather\nthan physical [tissues/organs/parts] might in fact \n[transfer/travel] along with them and \"inabit\" the [new/different]\nbody.\n\nNow, isn't that ever so much simpler than [Dan/Shellac]'s\nultraphysicalist explanation?\n\n--[Dan'l/Blattid]\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-03-21T09:07:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) mechAnIsm of consciousness", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWho is to say, in a universe where [souls are (in some sense) \ndemonstrable fact/consciousness can (apparently) exist \nindependently of hardware], that the brain is the [sole/primary] \nseat of [soul/consciousness/memory/personality]? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is some diversity of opinion on this, but I think Catholic theology\nteaches that while the soul can have some kind of existence apart from the\nbody, that a person isn't fully a person without a body (and not just \"a\nbrain\")--thus the importance of the doctrine of bodily resurrection.\n\nFrom there one can see Wolfe imagining (thought I doubt the church\nteaches) that something of a person's \"personness\" resides in her body\n(not just her brain).\n\nOther philosophers (essayist Wendell Berry comes to mind) have argued \nthat when considering what makes a person who he is, it is impossible to\ndraw a neat line between the brain and the rest of the body (the senses,\norgan systems, limbs all effect who we are) or perhaps even between a\nperson's body and his physical and social environment.\n\nThen too, Wolfe also may be drawing inspiration from fantasy/horror\nstories such as the ones where someone receives a transplant from a\nmurderer and begins to have murderous impulses. Or the magic hand that\nwill graft itself to the stump of a person's forarm, granting her great\npower but slowly remaking her in the image of the hand's original owner.\n\nMagic, in any sufficiently advanced society, is indistinguishable from\ntechology.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-03-21T09:01:19+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) mechAnIsm of consciousness", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is some diversity of opinion on this, but I think Catholic\ntheology teaches that while the soul can have some kind of existence\napart from the body, that a person isn't fully a person without a\nbody (and not just \"a brain\")--thus the importance of the doctrine\nof bodily resurrection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That isn't just Catholic, it's \"mainstream\" Christian teaching, \nthough the details vary. I believe some Protestant & Evangelical\ngroups talk about a succession of bodies -- i.e., the current \nbody, some kind of non-physical body (which I find \nindistinguishable from no body at all) between current death and \nthe general Resurrection, and the \"Resurrection Body\" afterwards.\nBut in general, Christian groups subscribe to the Apostle's Creed\nand its clause \"I believe...in the resurrection of the body.\" It\nwas, I believe, C.S. Lewis, an Anglican, who observed that a human\nsoul with no body was not a human but a ghost." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From there one can see Wolfe imagining (thought I doubt the\nchurch teaches) that something of a person's \"personness\"\nresides in her body (not just her brain)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the contrary, the Catholic church, at least, insists on the\nimportance of the body in spiritual matters. We are not only\nspiritually but physically \"the image of God,\" if only because\nGod was incarnate as a Man. Further, it is by eating of His Body\n(in the Eucharist) that we are incorporated more fully into His \nBody. And the Church takes cognizance of the ways in which \nphysical impairments (chemical, neurological, and other) can\nalter behavior and \"personality.\" \n\nTo put it in slightly non-Catholic but Catholic-friendly terms:\nyou can go out and buy a copy of Microsoft Word (or pick \nwhatever software you like). But try running it without putting \nit onto a computer first. The software cannot function without \nthe hardware. We are not spirits but spirits-in-bodies, spirits \nin a material world, and nothing in orthodox Christian teaching \nallows us to suppose that either the ghost or the machine is\nfunctional absent the other.\n\nThat said, Wolfe's speculations do go well beyond (though I\nbelieve that they do not actually go _against_) orthodox RC\nteaching when you get into conceptions like Marble \"integrating\"\nher \"software\" and that of Rose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Other philosophers (essayist Wendell Berry comes to mind) have\nargued that when considering what makes a person who he is, it\nis impossible to draw a neat line between the brain and the rest\nof the body (the senses, organ systems, limbs all effect who we\nare) or perhaps even between a person's body and his physical\nand social environment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, vide \"the social construction of personality\" (60s-ish \npsychology text by -- name forgotten: Timothy Leary's mentor) in \nthis context. And grumble about calling Wendell Berry a \nphilosopher; might as well call _me_ one at that rate.\n\nWhich wanders around but manages not to have said: I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then too, Wolfe also may be drawing inspiration from fantasy/horror\nstories such as the ones where someone receives a transplant from a\nmurderer and begins to have murderous impulses. Or the magic hand that\nwill graft itself to the stump of a person's forarm, granting her great\npower but slowly remaking her in the image of the hand's original owner." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is that \"real\" fantasy/horror? The only place I've run across that\nis in D&D, the \"hand of Vecna.\" But I haven't read all the fantasy/\nhorror classics by any means..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Magic, in any sufficiently advanced society, is indistinguishable\nfrom techology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm. Magic _is_ technology. But that's another debate.\n\n--Dan'l\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "E Dorian", "address": "edorian at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2001-03-21T13:43:35+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) mechAnIsm of consciousness", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nDate: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:01:19 -0800" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "murderer and begins to have murderous impulses. Or the magic hand that\nwill graft itself to the stump of a person's forarm, granting her great\npower but slowly remaking her in the image of the hand's original owner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is that \"real\" fantasy/horror? The only place I've run across that\nis in D&D, the \"hand of Vecna.\" But I haven't read all the fantasy/\nhorror classics by any means..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There was a movie released 10 years ago called Body Parts. It was a stupid \nhorror movie, the plot of which was the following. A \"mad-scientist\" type \ndoctor had a project where he would take body parts from convicted felons \n(death row folks, maybe? I don't recall the details), and \ngraft/insert/affix/install them on/in/upon law-abiding citizens.\n\nYou can guess what happened. For example one man wakes up to find his new \narm attempting to strangle his wife...\n\nThe movie is listed on Amazon:\nhttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6302270871/o/qid=985198009/sr=2-1/103-8761236-2403868" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-03-21T13:56:11+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) mechAnIsm of consciousness", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nFrom there one can see Wolfe imagining (thought I doubt the\nchurch teaches) that something of a person's \"personness\"\nresides in her body (not just her brain)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the contrary, the Catholic church, at least, insists on the\nimportance of the body in spiritual matters. We are not only\nspiritually but physically \"the image of God,\" if only because\nGod was incarnate as a Man. Further, it is by eating of His Body\n(in the Eucharist) that we are incorporated more fully into His \nBody. And the Church takes cognizance of the ways in which \nphysical impairments (chemical, neurological, and other) can\nalter behavior and \"personality.\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm also reminded now of Catholic veneration of relics. If a leg bone of\na saint is venerated and can be a source of miracles, then it implies that\nsomething of the saint's \"personness\" continues to inhere in his body even\nafter the soul has departed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And grumble about calling Wendell Berry a \nphilosopher; might as well call _me_ one at that rate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I just referred to philosophers and mentioned that he came to mind,\nnot that he actually was one of the philosophers. It's just that his\nrecent book \"Life is a Miracle,\" has (in the context of a huge rant\nagainst E.O. Wilson's \"Conciliance\") one of the best articulations I've\nseen of arguments against regarding human beings as machines (but the\narguments are not original to him).\n\nAnd Berry may not be a professional philosopher but he writes engaging\nessays with important, insightful things to say that few people are\nsaying. I'd take it as a great compliment to be put in his category." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is that \"real\" fantasy/horror? The only place I've run across that\nis in D&D, the \"hand of Vecna.\" But I haven't read all the fantasy/\nhorror classics by any means..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It must be. D&D never came up with anything original, it was all stolen\nfrom something or other. And the transplanted murderer's body part has\nbeen used by Stephen King, and I think has been the subject of at least\none horror movie. Don't know if that counts as \"real\" or not.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "jmcazurin", "address": "mikah at info.com.ph" }, "date": "2001-03-22T11:52:43+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) mechAnIsm of consciousness", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rostrum wrote:\nI'm also reminded now of Catholic veneration of relics. If a leg bone of\na saint is venerated and can be a source of miracles, then it implies that\nsomething of the saint's \"personness\" continues to inhere in his body even\nafter the soul has departed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One might also say that it is the faith of venerators in physical relics \nthat is the wellspring of miracles, and not the relics themselves.\n\nOf course, the relics have first to perform a miracle before they get \nvenerated. Chicken and egg problem?\n\nI'm remembering Severian's observation about all claws being sacred claws.\n\n\nMikah\n(my name seems to make me a chem)\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }