{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1278",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "whorl",
  "thread": {
    "id": 1278,
    "subject": "Hierodule = alien, not Hierogrammate",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 2,
    "first": "2001-03-21T13:29:00+00:00",
    "last": "2001-03-22T00:58:24+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<whorl-v0012-0471@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Dan Parmenter",
        "address": "dan at lec.com"
      },
      "date": "2001-03-21T13:29:00+00:00",
      "subject": "(whorl) Hierodule = alien, not Hierogrammate",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Bob Borski Bawled:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "I'm surprised this argument wasn't resurrected by its proponents earlier,\nciting the \"Merryn had problems with animals too\" line, which seems to\nsupport the notion--especially if you buy into my theory that Merryn is the\nbiological daughter of the Cumaean."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Unfortunately, the Cumaean-as-inhumu argument seems severely undercut by the\nfollowing passage from URTH (p. 357), where Severian is talking to the alien\nOssipago:\n\n***********\n\"...the Cumaean, she was a Hierodule, like you. Father Inire told me.\"\n\nFamulimus and Barbatus nodded.\n\n***********\n\nUnless, of course, you're now arguing that the inhumi are creatures of\nYesod..."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Hold on.  I don't think that hierodule necessarily = hierogrammate.\nMy impression was that \"Hierodule\" covered all aliens.  Dr. Talos\nsuggests \"extrasolarians\" which might not include Martians but\ndefinitely covers Inhumi.\n\nShellac\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun."
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<whorl-v0012-0476@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Robert Borski",
        "address": "rborski at charter.net"
      },
      "date": "2001-03-22T00:58:24+00:00",
      "subject": "(whorl) Re: Hierodule = alien, not Hierogrammate",
      "in_reply_to": "<whorl-v0012-0471@digest.urth.net>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Shellac having expostulated:\n\n<Hold on.  I don't think that hierodule necessarily = hierogrammate.\nMy impression was that \"Hierodule\" covered all aliens.  Dr. Talos\nsuggests \"extrasolarians\" which might not include Martians but\ndefinitely covers Inhumi.>\n\nI doubt you'll find much support for the notion that Hierodule is a generic\nterm for all aliens--unlike, say, cacogen, or as you mention, extrasolarian.\n\nFrom LEXICON URTHUS: \"Hierodule   one belonging to a race created by the\nHierogrammates of the higher universe, Yesod.\" (p. 168)\n\nFrom URTH OF THE NEW SUN, with Barbatus talking to Severian:\n\n*********\n\"You call us Hierodules, and that is your word and not ours, just as\nBarbatus, Famulimus and Ossipago are your words, words we have chosen\nbecause they are not common and describe us better than your other words\nwould. Do you know what Hierodule means, this word of your own tongue?\"\n\n\"I know that you are creatures of this universe [i.e., Yesod], shaped by\nthose of the next to serve them here. And that the service they desire of\nyou is the shaping of our race, of humanity, because we are the cognates of\nthose who shaped them in the ages of the previous creation.\"\n\nFamulimus trilled, \"Hierodule is 'holy slave.'\" (p. 36)\n\n*********\n\nSo clearly Wolfe is using \"Hierodule\" specifically to designate the aliens\nwho hail from Yesod, not Briah or the front pages of the National Enquirer.\n\nRobert Borski\n\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun."
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}