{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1290", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1290, "subject": "textual support for Silk suicide hypothesis", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2001-03-27T17:52:09+00:00", "last": "2001-03-29T11:43:50+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Parmenter", "address": "dan at lec.com" }, "date": "2001-03-27T17:52:09+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) textual support for Silk suicide hypothesis", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been reading over a lot of the old posts regarding the Silk\nsuicide-attempt hypothesis. My second reading of the series has\nmostly convinced me that this is in fact the case and the support I\noffer comes from the text and I'm quite surprised that no one appears\nto have mentioned it (at least not in the Whorl digests I examined).\nOn page 66 of RTTW we get this after a trip to Green and some dream\nanalysis: \n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n\t\"Let me illustrate my point. A man has a house where he lives\nfor some years with his wife. They are very happy, this man and his\nwife. They love each other, and whatever else may go amiss, they have\neachother. Then the man's wife dies, and he leaves the house in which\nhe has had so much happiness. It has become abhorrent to him. Unless\nthe Outsider, the God of gods, restores her to life, he has no wish to\nsee that house ever again. Am I making myself clear?\"\n\n\tVlug said, \"So I think,\" and Azjin, \"To me not.\"\n\n\t\"I am speaking of the spirit departing the body at death. The\nbody is the house I mentioned, and life was the wife who made it a\nplace of warmth and comfort.\"\n\n\tAzjin nodded. \"Ah.\"\n\n\t\"Perhaps her husband goes the gods, as Legerman Leeuw\nsuggested, perhaps only out into darkness. For the moment, it doesn't\nmatter. My point is that he leaves the home she made for him, never\nto return.\"\n\n\t\"Bird go,\" Oreb declared. He had been hopping around the\ntable, cadging bits of food. \"Go Silk.\"\n\n\tI told him, \"If you mean you wish to diea when I do, Oreb, I\nsincerely hope you don't. In Gaon they tell of dying men who kill\nsome favorite animal, usually a horse or a dog, so it will accompany\nthem in death; and under the Long Sun their rulers went so far as to\nhave their favorite wives burned alive on their funeral pyres. When I\ndie, I sincerely hope no friend or relative of mine will succumb to\nany such cruel foolishness.\"\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nHow should one intepret this? I choose to interpret it as Silk\n(SilkHorn) describing his own life with Hyacinth and his subsequent\nsuicide attempt when she dies. He speaks metaphorically, but perhaps\nit should be interpreted literally except with Silk as the\ngrief-stricken one who tries to join his beloved in death. Silk is a\nclassic \"do as I say, not as I do\" type. It wouldn't surprise me at\nall to hear Silk inveigh against pointless suicides while being\nexactly the sort who would go ahead and do just that. As to why he\nmade such a clumsy attempt, despite his Augur's skills, that's a\nposer, but I wouldn't rule out that Silk may not have been thinking\nclearly and simply thought \"slash my wrists\" without thinking about\nthe proper technique (this is apparently quite common in failed\nsuicide attempts). I think Silk the Augur was more accustomed to\ncutting the jugular vein.\n\nShellac\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2001-03-27T19:42:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) textual support for Silk suicide hypothesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 05:52 PM 3/27/01 -0500, Dan P wrote:\nOn page 66 of RTTW we get this after a trip to Green and some dream\nanalysis: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Perhaps her husband goes the gods, as Legerman Leeuw\nsuggested, perhaps only out into darkness. For the moment, it doesn't\nmatter. My point is that he leaves the home she made for him, never\nto return.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still tend to interpret this as a profound grief to the verge of death\nrather than actual suicide. But...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I told him, \"If you mean you wish to diea when I do, Oreb, I\nsincerely hope you don't. In Gaon they tell of dying men who kill\nsome favorite animal, usually a horse or a dog, so it will accompany\nthem in death; and under the Long Sun their rulers went so far as to\nhave their favorite wives burned alive on their funeral pyres. When I\ndie, I sincerely hope no friend or relative of mine will succumb to\nany such cruel foolishness.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... this is stronger. I'm not sure why this isn't proof, but it still seems\nunconvincing. Maybe I'm just in denial." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wouldn't rule out that Silk may not have been thinking\nclearly and simply thought \"slash my wrists\" without thinking about\nthe proper technique (this is apparently quite common in failed\nsuicide attempts). I think Silk the Augur was more accustomed to\ncutting the jugular vein." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but Silk is a Wolfe hero who knows everything. :-) Also, wouldn't he\nhave slashed his own throat?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://www.nyrsf.com\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-03-28T07:56:26+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) textual support for Silk suicide hypothesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wombat (but the Kitchen Staff Supervisor is an _Aardvark_!) wrote:\nYes, but Silk is a Wolfe hero who knows everything. :-) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you have confused Wolfe heroes with Heinlein. (Uh, I mean\nHeinlein heroes.)\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2001-03-28T23:26:07+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) textual support for Silk suicide hypothesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 7:56 AM -0800 3/28/01, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWombat (but the Kitchen Staff Supervisor is an _Aardvark_!) wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Yes, but Silk is a Wolfe hero who knows everything. :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you have confused Wolfe heroes with Heinlein. (Uh, I mean\nHeinlein heroes.)\n\n--Blattid" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is an easy mistake to make in the SS books. I felt that Horn or \nHorn/Silk or Silk or whatever you want to call him bore a very close \nresemblance to the Heinleinian omnicompetent man, especially in IGJ \nand RttW. He can beat up men half his age, armed only with a rotten \nstick, plan, fight in and win battles and give advice to lovesick \nteenage girls. And that's not the half of it!\n\nThe only thing I can see that sets him apart from a Heinlein hero is \nhis is his raging self doubt and feelings of inadequacy, which I will \nadmit is a big difference,\n\nWilliam Ansley\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2001-03-29T11:43:50+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) textual support for Silk suicide hypothesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:26 PM 3/28/01 -0500, you wrote:\nIt is an easy mistake to make in the SS books. I felt that Horn or \nHorn/Silk or Silk or whatever you want to call him bore a very close \nresemblance to the Heinleinian omnicompetent man, especially in IGJ \nand RttW. He can beat up men half his age, armed only with a rotten \nstick, plan, fight in and win battles and give advice to lovesick \nteenage girls. And that's not the half of it!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's true in _Long Sun_, too. Silk-as-detective, Silk-as-warrior (he\ndefeats an entire Trivigaunte airship with his bare hands!),\nSilk-as-genetic-superhero. It's easy to overlook because Silk is so\nself-effacing, but he really is an overman. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only thing I can see that sets him apart from a Heinlein hero is \nhis is his raging self doubt and feelings of inadequacy, which I will \nadmit is a big difference," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh yes. I was talking with Patrick O'Leary at the ICFA about what sets\n_Short Sun_ apart from most of Wolfe's ouvre. It's the raw emotionality of\nthe work. Wolfe's work always carries a significant emotional charge, but\n_Blue_ and _Green_ are unprecedented in their sheer emotional weight." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Kevin Maroney | Unplugged Games \n kmaroney at ungames.com | (212) 777-1190\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }