{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1296", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1296, "subject": "Preferring the Given", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2001-03-28T09:50:38+00:00", "last": "2001-03-28T20:54:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-03-28T09:50:38+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Preferring the Given", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is an idea in Christianity (with parallels in other religions, I\nimagine) that one must not cling too tightly to one's own desires and\nexpectations, lest one miss the good things that God wants to give you\nthat you would never have asked for or imagined yourself. C.S. Lewis\ncalled this idea \"preferring the given\" and it features prominently in\nPerelandra.\n\nAs I was reading SS, it seemed to me that you could see Wolfe's writting\nas a sort of school for practicing this virtue. He continually whets your\nappetite for something, makes you want the story to go in a certain\ndirection, and if you cling to that desire you will be frustrated over and\nover. But if you let go and let Wolfe take you where he will, you will\nsee wonders.\n\nIf you had told me after I finished OBW that instead of Horn, Sinew, and\nKrait trying (failing?) to love each other in the Amazing and Horrible\nJungles of Green I was going to get astral travel and hardly anything\nabout Horn and Sinew's relationship, I would have been very annoyed. And\nI was a little sad not to see some of those things in IGJ, yet I thought\nIGJ was fantastic, and by the time I got to RTTW I was perfectly happy to\nsee whatever Wolfe wanted to show me, and if that meant missing most of\nHornsilk's trial so we can read about him chatting with Marrow's widow, I\nhave to admit I still loved pretty much every page of it.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Parmenter", "address": "dan at lec.com" }, "date": "2001-03-28T17:46:36+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) re: Preferring the Given", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I was reading SS, it seemed to me that you could see Wolfe's writting\nas a sort of school for practicing this virtue. He continually whets your\nappetite for something, makes you want the story to go in a certain\ndirection, and if you cling to that desire you will be frustrated over and\nover. But if you let go and let Wolfe take you where he will, you will\nsee wonders." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, this is an excellent point, and I think it's also true of the\nthings that some of us found annoying, such as the image of \"astral\nOreb\" as a tentacled hairy dwarf in IGJ. I, and many others, read\nthis and found it pretty silly and out of place, and yet by the time\nwe get the explanation for this in RTTW, I found myself nodding and\nagreeing that given Wolfe's seeming \"astral travel model\" the\ndepiction of Oreb was entirely consistent to that model. This is just\none example." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you had told me after I finished OBW that instead of Horn, Sinew, and\nKrait trying (failing?) to love each other in the Amazing and Horrible\nJungles of Green I was going to get astral travel and hardly anything\nabout Horn and Sinew's relationship, I would have been very annoyed. And\nI was a little sad not to see some of those things in IGJ, yet I thought\nIGJ was fantastic, and by the time I got to RTTW I was perfectly happy to\nsee whatever Wolfe wanted to show me, and if that meant missing most of\nHornsilk's trial so we can read about him chatting with Marrow's widow, I\nhave to admit I still loved pretty much every page of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll agree with you there, though there are certain things about the\nseries, IGJ in particular that bother me such as Auk and Chenille\nbeing reduced to less than a cameo appearance, but in general, I think\nyou're right on the money here.\n\nLater, you also wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Michael Straight \nSo perhaps I can be forgiven for feeling, when Horn mentioned how the kite\nbuilder told them stuff they put in their book, that Wolfe was talking\ndirectly to me, and, when Horn mentions it for the THIRD time, that\nWolfe thinks my bulb is particuarly dim.\n\n(And there are at least a couple more comments Horn makes about getting\ninformation about Patera Q from time spent with him and from talking with\nPatera R that also seemed to be addressing the same issue. Cringe.)\n\n\"Thought you'd caught me out, eh? Didn't think I'd properly thought out\nthis whole narrator business? Well let me explain every detail slow-ly\nand care-ful-ly.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, don't be so hard on yourself. And if Wolfe really was reacting\nto you, I'd think you'd be flattered! If anything, perhaps he was\nbeing hard on himself.\n\nShellac\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-03-28T20:54:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) re: Preferring the Given", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 28 Mar 2001, Dan Parmenter wrote:\nFrom: Michael Straight \nSo perhaps I can be forgiven for feeling, when Horn mentioned how the kite\nbuilder told them stuff they put in their book, that Wolfe was talking\ndirectly to me, and, when Horn mentions it for the THIRD time, that\nWolfe thinks my bulb is particuarly dim.\n\nHey, don't be so hard on yourself. And if Wolfe really was reacting\nto you, I'd think you'd be flattered! If anything, perhaps he was\nbeing hard on himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chagrin at Wolfe being hard on himself was what I was really getting at. \nI didn't literally think he was talking to me. I was just a little sad\nthat he felt the need to spell all that out. The question wasn't so much\n\"Can Wolfe cover all the narrative bases?\" as \"Do Horn and Nettle take\nsome poetic licesnse here and there?\" and I was actually happier with a\nfew loose ends that seemed to point in that direction. (Fortunately, we\ncan transfer all that now to wondering about the stuff by Hoof\net. al.) \n\nWolfe seems surprisingly less interested in that kind of\nambiguity--witness his willingness in interviews to directly undercut\nCrane's point of view and say that, yes, the Outsider is real--considering\nhow good he is at creating it.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }