{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1298", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1298, "subject": "south america, gods, quetzal", "messages": 2, "voices": 1, "first": "2001-03-28T15:06:46+00:00", "last": "2001-03-28T15:06:46+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Barradas", "address": "daniel.barradas at iconmedialab.no" }, "date": "2001-03-28T15:06:46+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) south america, gods, quetzal", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi I'm new to this list and I've recently finished reading OBW. I was\nintrigued about the name of Patera Quetzal and it's obvious relation with\nsouth america, Quetzal is the name of a south american bird and it also\nreminded me of the Toltec god Quetzalcoatl. So I read the article about\npre-columbian religion in the Encarta online enciclopedia. Here are some\nquotes that I found interesting, make your own interpretations:\n\n\n\"Because the boundaries between the worlds of nature, human society, and the\nsupernatural were not sharply defined, pre-Columbian religious leaders were\nessentially shamans, people who were believed to be capable of moving back\nand forth between the earthly and supernatural realms. This travel between\nrealms was often associated with hallucinatory trances.\"\n\n\"Just as the heavenly bodies move and replace each other in specific sectors\nof the sky, a number of major pre-Columbian deities had shifting,\noverlapping identities. Consequently, individual gods and goddesses are\nprobably best interpreted not as distinct personages, but as fluid and\nshifting components of complex supernatural powers.\"\n\n\"The cosmic order depended on a reciprocal relationship between humans and\nthe gods, maintained through elaborate ceremonies. Since humans needed\nfavorable treatment from the gods in order to survive, rituals solicited,\nfor example, the help of agricultural deities in order to secure good\nharvests. However, gods were less clearly differentiated from humans than\nthey are in modern monotheistic religions , and few, if any, pre-Columbian\ndeities were all-knowing or all-powerful. Many gods required human support\nand could weaken or die if people did not sustain them by means of\nsacrifices.\"\n\n\"The Mayas believed that the universe had been, and would continue to be,\ncreated and destroyed multiple times, and that each such cycle lasted\nsomewhat longer than 5000 years.\" \n\n\"Evidently the Mayas believed that the cycle of creation and destruction\nwould repeat itself forever, with each successive universe being an exact\nduplicate of the previous one.\" \n\n\"Like the Mayas, the Aztecs believed in multiple creations and destructions\nof the universe, but with important differences. Most notably, the Aztecs\nthought they were living in the fifth and final cycle of creation, the\nso-called Fifth Sun. At the end of this cycle everything would be swallowed\nby eternal darkness, and there would be no Sixth Sun. The ultimate\ndestruction of the universe could not be prevented, but it could be delayed.\nThe Aztecs saw the sun as a warrior who fought a daily battle across the sky\nagainst the forces of darkness. As long as the sun remained strong, he would\nprevail in combat and the universe would survive. The Aztecs believed they\ncould keep the sun strong by nourishing him with a source of vital energy:\nhuman blood, preferably the vigorous blood of warriors captured in battle.\nTo the Aztecs, unceasing warfare and human sacrifice were sacred duties upon\nwhich the preservation of the universe depended.\"\n\n\"Quetzalcoatl, Toltec and Aztec god and legendary ruler of Mexico, usually\nreferred to as the Plumed, or Feathered, Serpent, the translation of his\nNahuatl name. In the 10th century AD the Toltecs transformed what had been a\ngod of soil fertility, worshiped in Teotihuacán before the 9th century, into\na deity associated with the morning and evening star, Venus. The Aztecs\nlater made him a symbol of death and resurrection and a patron of priests.\nThe opposing deity in the dualistic Toltec religion was Tezcatlipoca, the\ngod of the night sky. He was believed to have driven Quetzalcoatl from his\ncapital, Tula, into exile, from which, according to prophecy, Quetzalcoatl,\ndescribed as light-skinned and bearded, would return in a certain year.\nThus, when the Spanish conqueror Hernán Cortés appeared in 1519, the Aztec\nking, Montezuma II, was easily convinced that Cortés was the returning god.\"\n\n\n/daniel\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Barradas", "address": "daniel.barradas at iconmedialab.no" }, "date": "2001-03-28T15:06:46+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) south america, gods, quetzal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi I'm new to this list and I've recently finished reading OBW. I was\nintrigued about the name of Patera Quetzal and it's obvious relation with\nsouth america, Quetzal is the name of a south american bird and it also\nreminded me of the Toltec god Quetzalcoatl. So I read the article about\npre-columbian religion in the Encarta online enciclopedia. Here are some\nquotes that I found interesting, make your own interpretations:\n\n\n\"Because the boundaries between the worlds of nature, human society, and the\nsupernatural were not sharply defined, pre-Columbian religious leaders were\nessentially shamans, people who were believed to be capable of moving back\nand forth between the earthly and supernatural realms. This travel between\nrealms was often associated with hallucinatory trances.\"\n\n\"Just as the heavenly bodies move and replace each other in specific sectors\nof the sky, a number of major pre-Columbian deities had shifting,\noverlapping identities. Consequently, individual gods and goddesses are\nprobably best interpreted not as distinct personages, but as fluid and\nshifting components of complex supernatural powers.\"\n\n\"The cosmic order depended on a reciprocal relationship between humans and\nthe gods, maintained through elaborate ceremonies. Since humans needed\nfavorable treatment from the gods in order to survive, rituals solicited,\nfor example, the help of agricultural deities in order to secure good\nharvests. However, gods were less clearly differentiated from humans than\nthey are in modern monotheistic religions , and few, if any, pre-Columbian\ndeities were all-knowing or all-powerful. Many gods required human support\nand could weaken or die if people did not sustain them by means of\nsacrifices.\"\n\n\"The Mayas believed that the universe had been, and would continue to be,\ncreated and destroyed multiple times, and that each such cycle lasted\nsomewhat longer than 5000 years.\" \n\n\"Evidently the Mayas believed that the cycle of creation and destruction\nwould repeat itself forever, with each successive universe being an exact\nduplicate of the previous one.\" \n\n\"Like the Mayas, the Aztecs believed in multiple creations and destructions\nof the universe, but with important differences. Most notably, the Aztecs\nthought they were living in the fifth and final cycle of creation, the\nso-called Fifth Sun. At the end of this cycle everything would be swallowed\nby eternal darkness, and there would be no Sixth Sun. The ultimate\ndestruction of the universe could not be prevented, but it could be delayed.\nThe Aztecs saw the sun as a warrior who fought a daily battle across the sky\nagainst the forces of darkness. As long as the sun remained strong, he would\nprevail in combat and the universe would survive. The Aztecs believed they\ncould keep the sun strong by nourishing him with a source of vital energy:\nhuman blood, preferably the vigorous blood of warriors captured in battle.\nTo the Aztecs, unceasing warfare and human sacrifice were sacred duties upon\nwhich the preservation of the universe depended.\"\n\n\"Quetzalcoatl, Toltec and Aztec god and legendary ruler of Mexico, usually\nreferred to as the Plumed, or Feathered, Serpent, the translation of his\nNahuatl name. In the 10th century AD the Toltecs transformed what had been a\ngod of soil fertility, worshiped in Teotihuacán before the 9th century, into\na deity associated with the morning and evening star, Venus. The Aztecs\nlater made him a symbol of death and resurrection and a patron of priests.\nThe opposing deity in the dualistic Toltec religion was Tezcatlipoca, the\ngod of the night sky. He was believed to have driven Quetzalcoatl from his\ncapital, Tula, into exile, from which, according to prophecy, Quetzalcoatl,\ndescribed as light-skinned and bearded, would return in a certain year.\nThus, when the Spanish conqueror Hernán Cortés appeared in 1519, the Aztec\nking, Montezuma II, was easily convinced that Cortés was the returning god.\"\n\n\n/daniel\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }