{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1317", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1317, "subject": "tincture of Pas", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-04-03T15:42:38+00:00", "last": "2001-04-05T08:59:02+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Parmenter", "address": "dan at lec.com" }, "date": "2001-04-03T15:42:38+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) tincture of Pas", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Adam Stephanides \nHorn can't be literally saying that Pas is in him, because if he knew that\nPas was in him, he'd know that Silk was in him, and he doesn't. Inclito's\ngloss is accurate as far as Horn's conscious meaning goes. Still, I agree\nthat this passage is suggestive of Pas being present in Horn, more so than\nanything anyone else has put forward, though I remain unconvinced.\n\nIf Pas was downloaded into Horn, it was presumably along with the Divine\nSilk, when Pig got his eye. So do you hold with mantis that Silk's spirit\nwas completely absent from Horn until then (which I'm convinced is wrong)?\nOr do you think that after receiving the Divine Silk Horn had both the human\nSilk and the Divine Silk in him?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know if it's so cut-and-dried as all that. I guess I'm on the\nside that takes note that in a sense, Horn has had something of Silk\nin him since LAKE OF THE LONG SUN, where he mimics Silk. Remember,\nthose who imitate the gods may start to become them. It's very\ndifficult for me to say when each spirit entered another body and when\nit became aware of it. One of these days I, or someone (probably\nMantis!) will come up with a Short Sun timeline that make help make\nsome sense of what happened when.\n\nRostrum writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The passage you quote makes me want to reconsider mantis's theory that the\nNarrator got a download of the god version of Silk at some point (At the\nWest Pole? Via Pig? During the sacrifice at the manteion? Talking to\nthe monitor on the lander going back to Blue?). But then we have to start\nthinking about the Narrator as an alloy of multiple versions of Silk (Free\nLive Free?), as well as Horn, Typhon, and who knows who else." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That seems par for the course, with the precedent of Severian, even if\nas you point out earlier, it's not quite the same.\n\nShellac\n\np.s. Can anyone find the place in the text (I'm pretty sure it's OBW)\nwhere a prophet (Gaonese I think) predicts that Horn will lead three\ncities to victory? Horn denounces him as a charalatan (!) I thought\nthat this was very significant the second time I read the series as\nfurther proof of Horn's status as possibly the least reliable Wolfe\nnarrator of all, but I can't seem to find the place in the text to\ntriple check on it!\n\nD\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-04T09:01:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) tincture of Pas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3 Apr 2001, Dan Parmenter wrote:\nRostrum writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The passage you quote makes me want to reconsider mantis's theory that the\nNarrator got a download of the god version of Silk at some point (At the\nWest Pole? Via Pig? During the sacrifice at the manteion? Talking to\nthe monitor on the lander going back to Blue?). But then we have to start\nthinking about the Narrator as an alloy of multiple versions of Silk (Free\nLive Free?), as well as Horn, Typhon, and who knows who else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That seems par for the course, with the precedent of Severian, even if\nas you point out earlier, it's not quite the same." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Too late! I recant. I'm convinced that vizcacha's interpretation is\ncorrect: Incanto means that since \"Pas\" now refers to Pas+Silk that \"Pas\"\nis present because Silk is present (I guess this is sufficiently eliptical\nthat Incanto can say \"Pas is here, in a sense\" without admiting to himself\nthat he is Silk). So I go back to my original assertion there is no\nevidence that Pas or the Silkgod or Pigsilk have been downloaded into\nSilk's body. The narrator is just human Silk + Horn's spirit.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-04-04T21:15:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) tincture of Pas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 4/4/01 8:01 AM, Michael Straight at straight at email.unc.edu wrote:\nToo late! I recant. I'm convinced that vizcacha's interpretation is\ncorrect: Incanto means that since \"Pas\" now refers to Pas+Silk that \"Pas\"\nis present because Silk is present (I guess this is sufficiently eliptical\nthat Incanto can say \"Pas is here, in a sense\" without admiting to himself\nthat he is Silk)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like to be able to agree with this, since I don't believe Silk-in-Pig\nhas been downloaded into Silk's body either. But I can't. Just because the\ndivine Silk is linked with Pas, it doesn't follow that Pas is present in the\nhuman Silk. And even if it did, I don't think Horn would say \"Pas is here\"\nbased upon Pas's presence in the human Silk unless he consciously recognized\nthat he was Silk.\n\n--Adam \n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-05T08:59:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) tincture of Pas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Adam Stephanides wrote:\non 4/4/01 8:01 AM, Michael Straight at straight at email.unc.edu wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Too late! I recant. I'm convinced that vizcacha's interpretation is\ncorrect: Incanto means that since \"Pas\" now refers to Pas+Silk that \"Pas\"\nis present because Silk is present (I guess this is sufficiently eliptical\nthat Incanto can say \"Pas is here, in a sense\" without admiting to himself\nthat he is Silk)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd like to be able to agree with this, since I don't believe Silk-in-Pig\nhas been downloaded into Silk's body either. But I can't. Just because the\ndivine Silk is linked with Pas, it doesn't follow that Pas is present in the\nhuman Silk. And even if it did, I don't think Horn would say \"Pas is here\"\nbased upon Pas's presence in the human Silk unless he consciously recognized\nthat he was Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You misunderstand. Vizcacha is not saying that Incanto has any of Typhon\ndownloaded into him. Incanto is 0% Typhon. But \"Pas,\" as he exists now\non the Whorl, is at least partially and perhaps principally Silk. So if\nthe human Silk is present, then Pas is present in a sense because Pas is\nnow based on the human Silk.\n\nThus the first part of the quoted passage, where Incanto says that Pas\ndoesn't exist on the whorl anymore either. The original Pas who was equal\nto Typhon is gone. The new Pas is Passilk.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }