{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1321", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1321, "subject": "merging", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2001-04-05T17:54:36+00:00", "last": "2001-04-06T12:00:54+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-05T17:54:36+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) merging", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you have any references for 2? Yes, Horn clearly knows that he died on\nGreen, that he is in a different body, and that everybody thinks he's Silk.\nBut I don't remember any passages indicating that he has drawn the obvious\ninference that he is in Silk's body (prior to the talk with Remora). Nor,\napart from the Pas-on-Blue statement, do I recall him saying anything that\nshows he knows that Silk's spirit has merged with his own.\n\n--Adam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What about those explicit errors in On Blue's Waters where he calls his son \nHorn and then concludes that he caught the ball, he won the game? How much \nmore explicitly can Horn communicate that he has merged with Silk?\nBy the way, it's a real hoot to read the descriptions of Horn at the beginning \nof Lake of the Long Sun where Horn writes what a fine, handsome, and \nintelligent boy he is and then he and patera silk talk about the childhood \ntoys they had (which come up again in RttW)\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-06T09:58:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) merging", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, maa32 wrote:\nWhat about those explicit errors in On Blue's Waters where he calls his son \nHorn and then concludes that he caught the ball, he won the game? How much \nmore explicitly can Horn communicate that he has merged with Silk?\nBy the way, it's a real hoot to read the descriptions of Horn at the beginning \nof Lake of the Long Sun where Horn writes what a fine, handsome, and \nintelligent boy he is and then he and patera silk talk about the childhood \ntoys they had (which come up again in RttW)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sure Nettle put that stuff in about Horn in _Lake_ over his strenuous\nobjections.\n\nAlso, see the archives for my argument that the bit about catching the\nball and winning the game makes much more sense coming from Horn's persona\nthan from Silk's. I don't see why Silk would even remember the details of\nthat game, much less have a habit of reminiscing about his athletic\ntriumphs over children, whereas Horn surely remembers well the first\nchapter of his Book of Silk and sees it as a metaphor for helping others.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-04-06T07:51:23+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) merging", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, see the archives for my argument that the bit about catching the\nball and winning the game makes much more sense coming from Horn's persona\nthan from Silk's. I don't see why Silk would even remember the details of\nthat game, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm. Because it was the moment when enlightenment came to him?\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-04-06T10:14:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) merging", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 4/5/01 7:54 PM, maa32 at maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu wrote:\nAdam said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do you have any references for 2? Yes, Horn clearly knows that he died on\nGreen, that he is in a different body, and that everybody thinks he's Silk.\nBut I don't remember any passages indicating that he has drawn the obvious\ninference that he is in Silk's body (prior to the talk with Remora). Nor,\napart from the Pas-on-Blue statement, do I recall him saying anything that\nshows he knows that Silk's spirit has merged with his own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What about those explicit errors in On Blue's Waters where he calls his son\nHorn and then concludes that he caught the ball, he won the game? How much\nmore explicitly can Horn communicate that he has merged with Silk?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I don't have the book with me, so can't comment on this particular\npassage (which was the subject of discussion earlier), I would say that\npassages like these are the Silk in Silkhorn popping up, outside of Horn's\nconscious control, rather than the Horn in Silkhorn signaling that he is\naware of Silk's presence.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-06T12:00:54+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) merging", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, 6 Apr 2001, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nAlso, see the archives for my argument that the bit about catching the\nball and winning the game makes much more sense coming from Horn's persona\nthan from Silk's. I don't see why Silk would even remember the details of\nthat game, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ummm. Because it was the moment when enlightenment came to him?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Look at Silk's conversations with the kids right after the game. He's so\npreoccupied with his enlightenment he's barely paying attention when they\ntry to talk about the game. Horn stays behind and talks to Silk about it. \nSilk apologizes for pushing him down and Horn says \"You were their best\nplayer, it wouldn't have been fair to them if you hadn't played your\nbest.\"\n\nThis seems to be the idea the Rajan has in mind after having helped the\nGaonese win their war. He's saying \"I am proud to have won the war for\nthe Gaonese just as Silk won the game for the small boys.\" Silk wasn't\nproud of winning the game for the small boys. At the time, Silk said the\nfun of the game comes when a small boy knocks down a big boy.\n\nWe know Horn remembers the incident and his own interpretation of it, but\nit seems unlikely that Silk remembers it or places the same kind of\nimportance on it--he was thinking about enlightenment, not lessons learned\non the ball court.\n\n(Incanto expounds a similar idea to Mora in IGJ, telling her that the only\nthing that is more \"fair\" to allow all to do their best than to ask the\nstrong/rich/talented restrain themselves out of a sense of fairness, but\nsince Incanto is part Silk, that doesn't count as evidence of whether this\ncomes from Horn or not.)\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }