{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1325", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1325, "subject": "To alga: Complaining too early", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-04-08T00:56:05+00:00", "last": "2001-04-09T09:53:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nicholas Gevers", "address": "vermoulian at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2001-04-08T00:56:05+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) To alga: Complaining too early", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think part of the difficulty list members like alga\nand William Ansley have had in accepting RTW stems\nfrom the fact that they haven't had sufficient time to\ndigest the Short Sun series yet. The implications of a\nWolfe text take a while to emerge fully, if they ever\ndo; give TBSS time. Meanings will emerge. Just reread,\nand ponder...\n\nTo a few specifics: \n\nWilliam Ansley's querying of the \"brother and sister\"\nsection: TBSS is a political novel, with a strong but\nqualified utopian subtext. Please note, generally,\nthat the final fivefold \"Good fishing!\" utterance at\nthe end of RTW is almost certainly an homage to the\nending of Kim Stanley Robinson's markedly utopian MARS\ntrilogy (\"..on Mars, on Mars, on Mars, on Mars, on\nMars\"). The Secret of the Inhumi is a political\nsecret, an impetus to a juster social order; brother\nand sister represent Natural Man, or the Noble Savage,\nan essential component of general utopian discourse.\n\nHorn's status as inhumu-suspect, and the ring in RTW:\nHorn is not an inhumu, but he is inhumu-like, in that\nhe is one individual masquerading as another (either\nHorn as Silk or Silk as Horn). Thus the repeated hints\nof Horn being an inhumu, which misled John Clute among\nothers: the hints are thematic, pointers to Horn's\ninner and outer ambiguity. The ring Oreb retrieves for\nHorn in RTW changes form as a further pointer in the\ndirection of shifting or uncertain identity: it is\nprotean, like Horn, like the inhumi, like the\nNeighbors.\n\nThe death of Jahlee, and the massacre of the inhumi:\nAlga, I think this took you aback because you were\nanticipating Wolfe's intentions, a dangerous course as\nyou once warned me. You had a utopian/feminist agenda\nin your reading; while repeating that TBSS is a\npolitical and even utopian novel, I have to say that\nits utopianism is cautious, indeed conservative, as is\nonly natural for GW. Silk/Horn is concerned to protect\nhumanity; the inhumi are predators upon humanity; the\npolitical settlement required to defeat the inhumi is\nuniversal human solidarity, this 1) to deny the inhumi\nhuman blood and 2) to ensure that such human blood as\nthey do acquire is that of benign utopians. (Note that\nSinew's village late in IGJ is an emerging utopia\nalong these lines; but Silk/Horn is pessimistic about\ngeneral prospects on Blue.) In the immediate term,\ncruder methods are needed to fend off the inhumi, such\nas the killing of Jahlee; the inhumi need to be warned\nto rein in their arrogance; and in any case, Jahlee\nhad ample warning of the possibility of the murder, as\nin Horn's shooting of her \"friend\" on Green; and her\nattempt to kill Nettle was hardly benign. Wolfe in\nTBSS, as in all his major works, is being brutally\nfrank about the nasty realities of existence; Jahlee's\ndeath fits perfectly into this scheme, like it or not.\n\nOr so it seems to me.\n\n--Nick Gevers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- William Ansley wrote:\n\nWhat do I mean by \"loose ends\"? Well, if I had the\ntime and energy \n(which I currently do not and almost certainly will\nnot) I believe I \ncould make up an impressively lengthy list. To take\njust one example, \nthe \"brother and sister\" section toward the end of\nOBW. Is there \nanyone here who understands it? Is there anyone here\nwho feels that \nthe book/trilogy is a better work because this\npassage is in it?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-04-08T20:35:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) To alga: Complaining too early", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 4/8/01 2:56 AM, Nicholas Gevers at vermoulian at yahoo.com wrote:\nWilliam Ansley's querying of the \"brother and sister\"\nsection: TBSS is a political novel, with a strong but\nqualified utopian subtext. Please note, generally,\nthat the final fivefold \"Good fishing!\" utterance at\nthe end of RTW is almost certainly an homage to the\nending of Kim Stanley Robinson's markedly utopian MARS\ntrilogy (\"..on Mars, on Mars, on Mars, on Mars, on\nMars\"). The Secret of the Inhumi is a political\nsecret, an impetus to a juster social order; brother\nand sister represent Natural Man, or the Noble Savage,\nan essential component of general utopian discourse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My immediate reaction is that I don't believe Wolfe is a utopian, even a\n\"conservative\" one; I don't believe Wolfe advocates \"Natural Man\" or the\n\"Noble Savage\"; and while the parallel with the ending of the MARS trilogy\nis interesting, I doubt that it means Wolfe is borrowing Robinson's politics\n(unless, reversing the usual course of events, he's become radical in his\nold age)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk/Horn is concerned to protect\nhumanity; the inhumi are predators upon humanity; the\npolitical settlement required to defeat the inhumi is\nuniversal human solidarity, this 1) to deny the inhumi\nhuman blood and 2) to ensure that such human blood as\nthey do acquire is that of benign utopians." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The more I think about it, the less I understand how the inhumi's secret, or\n\"loving one another,\" is supposed to render the inumi harmless. I don't see\nwhat the colonists could do if they all loved each other that they can't do\nnow, which would keep the inhumi from getting any human blood. As for 2),\nfor the inhumi to voluntarily stop preying on humans, they'd have to be not\njust benign. They'd have to be self-sacrificing enough to give up their\nintelligence rather than attack humans (which, in moderation, apparently\ndoes humans no long-term harm). But if the colonists became so altruistic\nthat the inhumi would absorb that much altruism, then they would be\naltruistic enough to allow the inhumi to prey on them rather than lose their\nintelligence. In any case, as someone once pointed out, can the inhumi\nreally believe the colonists as a group capable of such altruism?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the immediate term,\ncruder methods are needed to fend off the inhumi, such\nas the killing of Jahlee; the inhumi need to be warned\nto rein in their arrogance" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Horn doesn't kill Jahlee as a deterrent to other inhumi; he kicks her to\ndeath in anger, and is deeply ashamed of it afterwards. (And if it had been\na deterrent, then it didn't work, since it was followed shortly afterwards\nby the mass attack.)\n\nI agree, though, that Jahlee's death is a plausible development, though not\ninevitable. My complaint was not at the failure of the inhumi subplot to\nresolve in a utopian fashion, but at its failure to resolve at all (except\nas far as Jahlee is concerned). The Secret was a big letdown (I don't buy\nthe theory that Horn has concealed the real secret from us, for reasons I've\nstated before, and if I did it wouldn't make me happier), and the victory\nover the massed inhumi at the wedding solves nothing.\n\nThe more I think about that wedding attack, though, the fishier it sounds.\nSuch a mass attack (at least six hundred inhumi) seems to be unprecedented.\nIt must be very rare, at least, or Blue would have to be far more\nmilitarized and regimented than it is. Would Juganu really be able to get\nhundreds of inhumi deviate from their usual habits and join him in his\nprivate revenge? And would these inhumi continue the attack once they saw\nthat the wedding party was armed, contrary to expectations?\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-09T08:29:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) To alga: Complaining too early", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 8 Apr 2001, Adam Stephanides wrote:\nI agree, though, that Jahlee's death is a plausible development, though not\ninevitable. My complaint was not at the failure of the inhumi subplot to\nresolve in a utopian fashion, but at its failure to resolve at all (except\nas far as Jahlee is concerned). The Secret was a big letdown (I don't buy\nthe theory that Horn has concealed the real secret from us, for reasons I've\nstated before, and if I did it wouldn't make me happier), and the victory\nover the massed inhumi at the wedding solves nothing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No takers for my theory that the Secret is simply that inhumi intelligence\nis derivative from humans and that they fear the Secret because they are\ninsecure, longing to be human (failing that to at least be mistaken for\nhuman), and they can't bear for humans in general to know what they really\nare?\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-04-09T09:53:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) To alga: Complaining too early", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 4/9/01 7:29 AM, Michael Straight at straight at email.unc.edu wrote:\nNo takers for my theory that the Secret is simply that inhumi intelligence\nis derivative from humans and that they fear the Secret because they are\ninsecure, longing to be human (failing that to at least be mistaken for\nhuman), and they can't bear for humans in general to know what they really\nare?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Fraid not; your theory won't jibe with Horn's statement that the Secret \"is\na weapon too heavy for our hands,\" and that the Neighbors knew it, but could\nnot wield it (IGJ, 125). The humans on Blue are perfectly capable of saying\nto the inhumi \"nyah, nyah, you aren't really human,\" and the Neighbors\npresumably could have done the same.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }