{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1340", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1340, "subject": "It's Mostly the Ending", "messages": 7, "voices": 5, "first": "2001-04-11T09:15:19+00:00", "last": "2001-04-11T17:40:41+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Lebling", "address": "dlebling at ucentric.com" }, "date": "2001-04-11T09:15:19+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) It's Mostly the Ending", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \nLike the godling. No reason at all to introduce it/him, and a completely\nirrational sort of creature to put in a closed environment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I think I said before, the godling reminded me of similar closed\nenvironment creatures in Varley's Titan trilogy. In both books they are\nmanifestations of the bad temper of a god. Wolfe writes science fantasy or\n\"science\" fiction, so it didn't bother me all that much. Of course, I think\nanything with telepathy, astral travel, possession is pretty much science\nfantasy anyway, so a few square-cube law violations are a minor additional\noffense, barely worthy of a traffic ticket." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also like\nMerryn, whose appearence just seems bad-tempered on the author's part.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Merryn's appearance, which struck me as a case of Asimov's syndrome, had as\na saving grace the fact that we _didn't_ find out she was Severian's sister,\nwhich would have been an even worse case of the above. For me, the only\npositive of the Red Sun sections was to get an outsider's view of Urth and\nSeverian. To the people from Blue, who are much more like modern Americans\nthan the people of Urth, we get a better idea of what a decayed, run-down,\nutterly tired and hopeless place Urth is. That part I liked. Hints that Silk\nis the ghost of Malrubius? Bah. Cilinia/Scylla buried in the Necropolis?\nBah, again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, honestly, what nonsense--this isn't the Torah!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As a regular reader of this list, I wonder about that sometimes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not my fault\nthat Wolfe abandoned Mucor, murdered Jahlee, sent Nettle and Seawrack\noff on a Star Trek menage a trois with the saintly Silk, ditched Babbie,\ngave us no word of Oreb and in general tossed his whole story out the\nwindow--or off-planet as the case may be. Leaving both Blue and Green to\ngo to hell together, Neighbors, inhumi and whatnot. Tra-la, let's be\noff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "RttW exhibits a serious case of Heinlein syndrome, where the story just\nrumbles to stop and disgorges something intended to be transcendant or\nstirring, leaving loose ends all over the place. I thought the ending\nforced, possibly because Wolfe wanted to come up with something that was T\nor S, this being the conclusion of a twelve volume epic, but he doesn't do\nthat sort of thing, so it falls flat. It does have a \"lighting out for the\nterritories\" feel about it, to uplift the Star Trek reference a bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That strikes me as more nonsense. Why in the world would he be offering\nan \"homage\" to Robinson, a very diiferent kind of writer. Proust, maybe,\nbut Robinson? I don't think so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I enjoyed the _Mars_ trilogy, once I got beyond the didacticism. I rather\ndoubt Wolfe would enjoy it, or write an homage to it, or even a response.\nThe Short Sun books are a planetary adventure of an almost Vancean nature at\nthe \"what the plowman saw\" level, with the genetic-engineered offspring of a\npsychological novel and an imititation-of-Christ novel on top of it to carry\nthe real message. As such, I found it excellent until the rushed and\nunsatisfactory ending." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do not even object to Jahlee's death\nper se. I object to the hasty, melodramatic and far-fetched (would\nJahlee really have attacked Nettle so foolishly--allow me to doubt it)\nB-movie manner in which it is fobbed off" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've gone on record as thinking Jahlee's behavior and fate make sense in the\nterms of the novel. She attacks Nettle out of jealousy the day after Horn\nand Nettle spend the night together. She is killed because she violated her\nagreement with Horn. This makes sense but it's sudden and disappointing in\nits suddenness.\n\nI think he ran out of energy or room or ideas or some combination of the\nthree. Up to the point where the inhumi attack the wedding, things seemed\nalmost on track, but after that there are few scenes that are excellent\n(Silk and Remora is one, but it's undercut by the fact that we knew \"Horn\"\nwas Silk already -- we don't feel Silk's awakening).\n\nThere are two major areas where the book as a whole lets us down on, and\nwe've beaten them both to death, but I'll say again:\n\na) we get the huge buildup on the secret of the inhumi, and it turns out the\nsecret doesn't meet the expectations that the narrative builds up for it. We\nwere expecting something more than we guessed in the first volume, but that\nwas it.\n\nb) the fact that the narrator is Horn in Silk's body has been obvious since\nthe first volume, so the climactic revelation that the narrator is Horn in\nSilk's body falls flat.\n\nThese are the two Big Ticket Items in the trilogy, and both are\ndisappointments. The rest of the problems (and Alga has enumerated them in a\nproperly annoyed way) are problems of narrative construction that a careful\neditor or Wolfe himself could have dealt with.\n\nWhich is not to say I didn't enjoy the trilogy; I've already read it more\nthan once and gotten more enjoyment each time.\n\n-- Dave Lebling\n aka vizcacha\n\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-11T10:46:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) It's Mostly the Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, David Lebling wrote:\nThere are two major areas where the book as a whole lets us down on, and\nwe've beaten them both to death, but I'll say again:\n\nb) the fact that the narrator is Horn in Silk's body has been obvious since\nthe first volume, so the climactic revelation that the narrator is Horn in\nSilk's body falls flat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought the climactic revelation was that the narrator is Silk in Silk's\nbody.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2001-04-11T11:10:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) It's Mostly the Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:15 AM 4/11/01 -0400, David wrote:\nb) the fact that the narrator is Horn in Silk's body has been obvious since\nthe first volume, so the climactic revelation that the narrator is Horn in\nSilk's body falls flat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The climax isn't the \"revelation\", since that fact is clear to a reader who\nis paying *any* attention at all during _Green_ or _Return_. The climax is\nthe narrator's *acceptance* of the truth he has been denying since page 1\nof _Blue_. \n\nOverall, I found _Return_ a disappointing novel for many of the reasons\nthat Alga did, but I thought the climax was one of the parts that was\ncompletely satisfying. \n\nI can probably elaborate on what I'm going to say next, but not today: One\nof the things which sets _Blue_ and _Green_ apart from the majority of\nWolfe's work is their naked emotionalism. _Return_, on the other hand,\nfeels much more distant, and that change of tone is frustrating. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://www.nyrsf.com\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2001-04-11T14:29:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) It's Mostly the Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A few thoughts on some of these issues:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also like\nMerryn, whose appearence just seems bad-tempered on the author's part.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Merryn's appearance, which struck me as a case of Asimov's syndrome, had as\na saving grace the fact that we _didn't_ find out she was Severian's sister,\nwhich would have been an even worse case of the above." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I strongly suspect that Merryn appears because so many fans wanted \nher to appear. She's been MUCH discussed over the years. I think that there \nare probably several places in the SS novels that reflect interaction with \nfans/readers. I recall a number of years ago telling Wolfe that Patera \nBunny (a Presbyterian pastor) mentioned to me that while in a counselling \nsituation with a parishioner, he found himself thinking, \"What would Silk \ndo?\" Then I noticed almost exactly this sentence from the Narrator at one \npoint in either Blue or Green (I cannot recall where). Someone else here \nalso pointed to a place where something he had said to Wolfe seemed to \nappear in the SS narrative. (Sorry, I cannot recall who or what.) At any \nrate, if we did not like Merryn's appearance, we have found the enemy and \nit is us!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me, the only\npositive of the Red Sun sections was to get an outsider's view of Urth and\nSeverian. To the people from Blue, who are much more like modern Americans\nthan the people of Urth, we get a better idea of what a decayed, run-down,\nutterly tired and hopeless place Urth is. That part I liked. Hints that Silk\nis the ghost of Malrubius? Bah. Cilinia/Scylla buried in the Necropolis?\nBah, again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " This also struck me as overly coincidental -- though Wolfe has \npointed out that in real life we encounter strange coincidences more often \nthan we might think we would. But perhaps there is some method in this. \nBoth Silk and Severian are Sub-messiahs (to coin a term), \"Christian \nfigures\" who are replicating in a very significant way certain central \naspects of Christ's life and work. Perhaps Wolfe is positing a kind of \n\"spiritual attraction\" or magnetism between the two, and between their \ncompanies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've gone on record as thinking Jahlee's behavior and fate make sense in the\nterms of the novel. She attacks Nettle out of jealousy the day after Horn\nand Nettle spend the night together. She is killed because she violated her\nagreement with Horn. This makes sense but it's sudden and disappointing in\nits suddenness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Maybe. But to me it was fitting, and her death in Nettle's \nforgiving arms was very moving. I think Wolfe wanted us to think about the \nsoul of Jahlee. She really is human in every way that really counts. Now \nshe dies. Is that really the end of her? Is she just an animal? Or does she \nperhaps \"go to heaven\" in a way analogous to the other character's \nascension at the end of the novel?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think he ran out of energy or room or ideas or some combination of the\nthree. Up to the point where the inhumi attack the wedding, things seemed\nalmost on track," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Long Sun ends apocalyptically. Silk has gone to heaven-mainframe, \nand now returns to an Armageddon in Viron, after which Silk's people go to \n\"heaven\" (outer space), leaving the Whorl behind. If my guess was right, in \nmy post on Revelation 19, Wolfe intends Short Sun to have the same kind of \nreferential ending: the Marriage Supper is also a Great Battle. And, it is \nthe Last Battle in Revelation. So we move to a kind of final armageddon in \nNew Viron, after which once again certain people go to \"heaven\" (outer \nspace) -- which turns out to be the Whorl. But, in the Short Sun series, \nthe Whorl functions as heaven in some ways, for it is the place where \nMessiah Silk is, and it is the place from which we get the new seeds for \n\"our daily bread.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are two major areas where the book as a whole lets us down on, and\nwe've beaten them both to death, but I'll say again:\n\na) we get the huge buildup on the secret of the inhumi, and it turns out the\nsecret doesn't meet the expectations that the narrative builds up for it. We\nwere expecting something more than we guessed in the first volume, but that\nwas it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Granted, that can be a problem for US. But if someone is \nre-reading the trilogy, I'd like to know if the \"secret\" is something \nanyone other than Horn and then the Narrator knows. I came away thinking, \n\"well, everyone knows this secret,\" but now I doubt it. We learn it early \non, but only because we see Horn learn it, and figure it out for ourselves. \nBy \"secret\" here I mean that the inhumi become intelligent and ensouled as \na result of human blood.\n But this brings us back to what the Secret really is. Since Horn \nand the later Narrator don't intend to reveal it, why is it so clearly \nrevealed to the reader in the course of the trilogy? I continue to think \nthat the \"great secret\" that Jahlee tells at the end is not THE Secret, \njust \"a great secret.\" One option, discussed here, is that the Secret is \nhow the inhumi really get to Blue, which clearly is not by travelling \nthrough outer space. But that would not seem to fit the \"too heavy to bear\" \naspect of the Secret. I suspect that the Secret is ... secreted away in the \ntext, and that we in this discussion have not yet ascertained it, or \nascertained it fully." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b) the fact that the narrator is Horn in Silk's body has been obvious since\nthe first volume, so the climactic revelation that the narrator is Horn in\nSilk's body falls flat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Well, you've revised your phrasing, and in terms of that revision, \nit would be a surprise to learn that it is not a living Horn in an \"empty\" \nSilk body, but that either (a) Horn is really dead and Silk is alive, or \n(b) both are alive in Silk's body.\n And now a question: Has anyone investigated the possibility that \nSeawrack is actually an inhuma? She does seem to be able physically to \nchange shape. We've been focussed on the relationship of Seawrack with the \nMother, but where did Seawrack really come from? I've thought of her as a \nmodified human, but maybe she is a modified inhuma. Krait certainly seemed \nto have a negative view of her as a schemer. Is it possible that Seawrack \nshows, in some way, what the inhumi might be like if they were truly \ntransformed? Just some questions....\n\nPatera Nutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-11T15:40:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) It's Mostly the Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, James Jordan wrote:\n Maybe. But to me it was fitting, and her death in Nettle's \nforgiving arms was very moving. I think Wolfe wanted us to think about the \nsoul of Jahlee. She really is human in every way that really counts. Now \nshe dies. Is that really the end of her? Is she just an animal? Or does she \nperhaps \"go to heaven\" in a way analogous to the other character's \nascension at the end of the novel?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Fava is any indication, then Jahlee and Hide are going to gang up and\nposess Seawrack whenever Hide dreams.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2001-04-11T15:46:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) It's Mostly the Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Patera Nutria makes some good points, which I've snipped to get to the\npoint that I wish to disagree with: \n\nAt 02:29 PM 4/11/01 -0500, you wrote:\n[Alga Alice said: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "a) we get the huge buildup on the secret of the inhumi, and it turns out the\nsecret doesn't meet the expectations that the narrative builds up for it. We\nwere expecting something more than we guessed in the first volume, but that\nwas it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Granted, that can be a problem for US. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, yes. Alga was discussing *a real-world reader's reaction to the\nnovel*, not the reaction of someone on Blue to the book. The narrative\nbuilds up a lot of emotional energy in \"the secret\"; Jahlee's revelation is\na crucial plot moment because of the effect it has on everyone around it...\nand the secret goes off like a damp squib, because *we the reader already\nknow it*. \n\n(An aside: We knew the basics of the secret before Jahlee's revelation.\nHowever, the particular detail that it is the children of the inhumi who\ngain intelligence from the blood rather than the predators themselves is\nsomething that had not been revealed in the earlier volumes, I believe. I\nkeep trying to figure out how this detail is of such significance that it\ntransforms our understanding of The Secret, and I keep failing to do so. I\nsuspect that Wolfe intended for that last piece to be a major revelation,\nbecause of the way that the narrative is structured, but if it is, it\neludes me.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I continue to think \nthat the \"great secret\" that Jahlee tells at the end is not THE Secret, \njust \"a great secret.\" One option, discussed here, is that the Secret is \nhow the inhumi really get to Blue, which clearly is not by travelling \nthrough outer space. But that would not seem to fit the \"too heavy to bear\" \naspect of the Secret. I suspect that the Secret is ... secreted away in the \ntext, and that we in this discussion have not yet ascertained it, or \nascertained it fully." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That doesn't hold up to examination. There's a long converation between\nHorn and one of the twins in _Green_ in which Horn tries to get the twin to\nunderstand the secret of the inhumi, and it's very much about how the\ninhumi benefit from the blood of their prey. Also, Horn's reaction to\nJahlee telling Nettle the Secret is inappropriate for anything other than\n*the* Secret--you know, the one which the Inhumi will kill to protect?\n\nAnd even if there is a \"greater secret\" hidden in the book--if that's true,\nthat's Wolfe hiding the emotional core of the novel from his readers again,\nand I've already expressed today some displeasure to the degree that\n_Return_ is distanced from the reader. If the secret that we are shown\non-camera in a big climactic momement isn't *the* secret, then that's yet\nanother layer of distance, and it's unsatisfying. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://www.nyrsf.com\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-04-11T17:40:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) It's Mostly the Ending", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 4/11/01 8:15 AM, David Lebling at dlebling at ucentric.com wrote:\nMerryn's appearance, which struck me as a case of Asimov's syndrome, had as\na saving grace the fact that we _didn't_ find out she was Severian's sister,\nwhich would have been an even worse case of the above." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But we did, I think. Jahlee says she doesn't know who the boy [Severian]\nis, and Merryn says \"'He's my brother. We're brothers and sisters, we\nwitches and the torturers.'\" (267) There's a bit of ambiguity here, as her\nwords could be interpreted as meaning only that all torturers are \"brothers\"\nto all witches; but if that's what she means, her answer is rather\nunhelpful." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think he ran out of energy or room or ideas or some combination of the\nthree. Up to the point where the inhumi attack the wedding, things seemed\nalmost on track, but after that there are few scenes that are excellent\n(Silk and Remora is one, but it's undercut by the fact that we knew \"Horn\"\nwas Silk already -- we don't feel Silk's awakening)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Huh? The scene with Silk and Remora is the only scene that follows the\nwedding attack, except for the three-page Afterword.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }