{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1345", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1345, "subject": "Digest whorl.v012.n100", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-04-12T06:30:45+00:00", "last": "2001-04-12T10:49:25+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Timothy Reilly", "address": "treilly at ozemail.com.au" }, "date": "2001-04-12T06:30:45+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n100", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My two cents worth:\n\nI also found RTTW unsatisfying, but then I'd found IGJ a big let down from\nOBW too. Without repeating the problems, I refer to Alan Lloyd's excellent\npost in whorl.v012.n049 and alga's subsequent commentary. IGJ iirc\nintroduced all the astral travel nonsense, and also seemed to involve\nsomething of a failure of the imagination concerning Green (where precious\nlittle time ultimately ended up being spent by the book). RTTW lacked the\nlyricism of both OBW and (to a lesser extent) IGJ and for me was too full of\nthe juvenilia of the LS series.\n\nOne issue Mr Lloyd raised (I think) which I do want to specifically second\nis ALL THE TYPOS. These were bad in earlier volumes, but RTTW was\nridiculous (\"Hounded nodded\" etc). What sort of editing is this? It\ncertainly doesn't indicate respect for the readers - or the author. It's\nnot as if Tor couldn't ask one of the members of this list to cast an eagle\neye over a draft.\n\nOn this point perhaps, one question (to add to the litany). At p 360,\n\"Father\" is quoted as saying of Typhon's daughter Scylla: \"the daughter who\nhad pledged herself in secret to one of the sea gods of the Short Sun Whorl\nthat would in time become our Red Sun Whorl\". What is he talking about?\nShe pledged herself as I understand to a god of the Red Sun Whorl, but it\ncan't be just a simple typo as how does the Short Sun Whorl become in time\nthe (indeed \"our\") Red Sun Whorl? They are two different places after all\n(I think!).\n\nAnyway I don't know if this is a typo or what. Next page (p 361) we have\n\"In Oreb she searched this whorl for nearly half a year, finding nothing\nbetter [\"than\" presumably is missing - another typo] one or two landers with\ntheir glasses half intact\". A bit later same page \"He was a little [\"man\"\nmissing?] and old again\".\n\nThe only explanation for all three other than them being oversights is that\nit's Hoof writing.\n\nFinally, I reiterate an earlier request for a reference to or email of\nClute's review.\n\nTim\n\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kieran Cleary", "address": "kcleary at jb.man.ac.uk" }, "date": "2001-04-12T10:49:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n100", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the daughter who had pledged herself in secret to one of the sea gods of\nthe Short Sun Whorl that would in time become our Red Sun Whorl\". What\nis he talking about?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Short Sun Whorl' is a generic term. The particular SS Whorl mentioned\nhere is the one 'that would in time become our RS Whorl', i.e. Urth. \nNothing more than that, I think.\n\nYou'll find Clute's review at\n\nhttp://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue197/excess.html\n\nKieran C.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kieran Cleary", "address": "kcleary at jb.man.ac.uk" }, "date": "2001-04-12T10:49:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n100", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the daughter who had pledged herself in secret to one of the sea gods of\nthe Short Sun Whorl that would in time become our Red Sun Whorl\". What\nis he talking about?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Short Sun Whorl' is a generic term. The particular SS Whorl mentioned\nhere is the one 'that would in time become our RS Whorl', i.e. Urth. \nNothing more than that, I think.\n\nYou'll find Clute's review at\n\nhttp://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue197/excess.html\n\nKieran C.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-04-12T09:21:57+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n100", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Timothy R wrote:\nIGJ iirc introduced all the astral travel nonsense, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Modulo the idea that it was \"nonsense,\" yes. Mr. Wolfe, who writes \n\"science-fantasy\" (more accurately: he writes science fiction that \nmakes some different assumptions about the nature of physical \nreality than do most SF writers), is entitled to posit astral travel\nif he chooses; dislike it if you choose, but to call it nonsense wrt \nWolfe's universe-of-discourse seems rather petty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and also seemed to involve something of a failure of the \nimagination concerning Green (where precious little time\nultimately ended up being spent by the book). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think \"precious little\" is an exaggeration; between the \n(relatively few) flashbacks and the astral travel scenes, I'd \nesimate (after two readings but without counting pages) that \nbetween a quarter and a third of the book is spent on Green. \nAs for a \"failure of the imagination,\" well, disgustibus non \ndeputandem; I found the scenes on Green some of Wolfe's most\nvivid ever, and sufficiently horrifying (I'd go as far as\n\"gut wrenching\") that I can easily sympathize with the Narr's\ndisinclination to reminisce over the place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "RTTW lacked the lyricism of both OBW and (to a lesser extent)\nIGJ and for me was too full of the juvenilia of the LS series." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Juvenilia of the LS series? What on _earth_ are you talking about?\nLONG is quite possibly the most mature sf series I have ever read." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One issue Mr Lloyd raised (I think) which I do want to specifically\nsecond is ALL THE TYPOS. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I agree that this is offensive I wish to point out that this is\nnothing particular to RttW; I've noticed that the proofreading of \nbooks in general -- with the exception of the academic presses --\nhas been deteriorating for the last decade or so. I suspect this of\nbeing an artifact of overdependency on spelling checkers that won't\ncatch things like \"hounded\" because they're legitimate words even if\nthey make no sense in context." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Father\" is quoted as saying of Typhon's daughter Scylla: \"the\ndaughter who had pledged herself in secret to one of the sea gods\nof the Short Sun Whorl that would in time become our Red Sun Whorl\". \nWhat is he talking about? She pledged herself as I understand to a\ngod of the Red Sun Whorl, but it can't be just a simple typo as how\ndoes the Short Sun Whorl become in time the (indeed \"our\") Red Sun\nWhorl? They are two different places after all (I think!)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay... \n\nScylla is the daughter of Typhon, you've got that. The \"sea god\" is \nGreat Scylla. GS is a sea god (or goddess) of Urth, which is the _old_ \nShort Sun Whorl that sent out the Long Sun Whorl (I'm sure you got\nthat much, too). \n\nNow, the new Short Sun Whorls, Green and Blue do not have a red sun.\nSo when the Narr and the twins and all travel astrally to Urth, they \nrefer to it as \"the Red Sun Whorl;\" thus, though they do not know \nwhat its inhabitants call it, it is \"their\" Red Sun Whorl.\n\n\n--Dan'l\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }