{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1349", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1349, "subject": "Dante Thoughts", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-04-12T15:26:01+00:00", "last": "2001-04-18T19:25:56+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2001-04-12T15:38:12+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Dante Thoughts", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:43 AM 4/12/2001 -0500, Adam wrote:\nI like this, though I don't know if Wolfe intended it. But surely Purgatory\nwould be the Whorl _and_ Blue, with the conversation with Remora\ncorresponding to the final purging of Dante's sins; and the undepicted\nvoyage to the stars would be the Paradiso. That would make either Seawrack\nor Nettle Beatrice; either would fit. But who is Virgil, then? Since\nVirgil left Dante at the end of the Purgatorio, the logical candidate would\nbe Horn's spirit, which (as I've argued before) leaves Silk's body around\nthis time; which would mean that it is Silk who corresponds to Dante." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The logical candidate for Virgil is Oreb, especially since Oreb, \nwhile at one level a figure of the Holy Spirit, is throughout this time \nridden by Scylla, a political and pagan type of character. True, Oreb is \nnot left behind at the end, but Scylla has left him (right?).\n I wonder if more could be done with this. I recall that when Horn \nfell into the pit, in OBW, he says that this was the end of all his \nhappiness. \"Abandon hope, all ye who enter here\"? Entrance into Inferno? \nThe rest of Blue would be Limbus Patrum, Green would be Inferno proper, and \nWhorl would be Purgatorio.\n Beatrice would seem to be both Seawrack and Nettle, in that Horn \nand later the Narrator frequently think of both of them in idealized terms. \nThe real-life Beatrice, for those who may not know, was a young girl that \nDante fell in love with, though he and she were married. Nothing happened, \nof course, this being courtly-love. And then she died very young. She \nbecame his ideal and inspiration, and the departed literary-Beatrice \nconducts Dante through Paradisio after his journey with the \"good pagan\" \nVirgil through Inferno and Purgatorio.\n I suppose Mantis needs to produce a chapbook on literary allusions \nand underpinnings of the SS books, showing the Odyssey and Divina Commedia \nsequences.\n Interesting. Wonder if Wolfe really intended it....\n\nNutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-04-12T15:26:01+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Dante Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The logical candidate for Virgil is Oreb, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I think either Krait or (most likely) Sinew, both of whom \naccompany the Narr -- oh, Hell, _that_ at least is definitely all Horn\n-- to Green and are left behind there in various ways. (Yeah, okay, I\nknow... Vergil is left behind at the Purgatorio-Paradiso transition, \nnot the Inferno-Purgatorio transition...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wonder if more could be done with this. I recall that when Horn \nfell into the pit, in OBW, he says that this was the end of all his \nhappiness. \"Abandon hope, all ye who enter here\"? Entrance into Inferno? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I've been puzzling over the \"three beasts\" of the opening of\nInferno; that's the sort of thing Wolfe would almost certainly parallel\nin some way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The rest of Blue would be Limbus Patrum, Green would be Inferno proper,\nand Whorl would be Purgatorio." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you mean the worlds or the books?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Beatrice would seem to be both Seawrack and Nettle, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Primarily Nettle, I think..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The real-life Beatrice, for those who may not know, was a young girl\nthat Dante fell in love with, though he and she were married. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Key word missing here: \"...were NOT married.\" Clearly JJ knows this\nand this was a typo (or brainfart or whatever)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting. Wonder if Wolfe really intended it...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd guess yes but I'd have to ask him. Which I don't really\nexpect to have the opportunity to do...\n\n--Dan'l\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2001-04-12T18:21:32+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Dante Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 03:26 PM 4/12/2001 -0700, Dan'l wrote:\n The logical candidate for Virgil is Oreb," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I think either Krait or (most likely) Sinew, both of whom\naccompany the Narr -- oh, Hell, _that_ at least is definitely all Horn\n-- to Green and are left behind there in various ways. (Yeah, okay, I\nknow... Vergil is left behind at the Purgatorio-Paradiso transition,\nnot the Inferno-Purgatorio transition...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Hmmm. I'd see those two boys as anticipations of Hoof and Hide, \nand fitting more with the Odyssey theme, Odysseus meeting his son toward \nthe end of his journey paralleling the Narrator's meeting Hoof and Hide \ntoward the end of his. I'd still plug Oreb, for now...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I've been puzzling over the \"three beasts\" of the opening of\nInferno; that's the sort of thing Wolfe would almost certainly parallel\nin some way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Krait, Seawrack, and Babbie? Probably not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The rest of Blue would be Limbus Patrum, Green would be Inferno proper,\nand Whorl would be Purgatorio." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you mean the worlds or the books?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I meant the rest of OBW, after the fall into the pit. Sorry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The real-life Beatrice, for those who may not know, was a young girl\nthat Dante fell in love with, though he and she were married." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Key word missing here: \"...were NOT married.\" Clearly JJ knows this\nand this was a typo (or brainfart or whatever)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Duh. Mea maxima culpa.\n\nNutricious\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-04-18T19:25:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Dante Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it might be more productive, instead of seeking a blow-by-blow\ncorrespondence with the Divine Comedy a la ULYSSES, to look for\ncorrespondences between specific episodes, not necessarily in order. Thus,\nKrait's rescue of Horn from the pit resembles the beginning of the Inferno,\nwhere Virgil leads Dante out of the dark wood. But it also resembles Dante\nand Virgil's climbing up Satan's body out of the lowest circle of Hell: Horn\nin the pit is at a low point, both physically and psychologically; the\nlowest circle of Hell was for traitors, and Horn becomes a traitor to his\nfamily, whatever the pressure he was under; and being lifted out of a pit by\nan inhumu is similar to climbing out of a pit using Satan as a ladder.\n\nSimilarly, in Cantos XXI-XXIII Dante and Virgil have to cross a series of\nditches, and find that the bridge across one of them is shattered. A demon\nfalsely tells theml there is another bridge further on, and convinces them\nto accept as guides to it a group of demons, who later turn on them. This\nis reminiscent of Horn and Sinew's boarding the lander which they think will\ntake them to Whorl, but which is controlled by inhumi and aimed at Green.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }