{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1357", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1357, "subject": "Bad Horn", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2001-04-16T09:37:38+00:00", "last": "2001-04-16T23:55:23+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "akt", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2001-04-16T09:37:38+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Bad Horn", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Allan ( not Wooly Mammoth or Bug ):\n\nPrimo post on Horn, made me actually think about the books for the first\ntime in quite a while. I'd never viewed Horn quite that way, but now I\nthink you're right. (And I also agree about Silk's sanctimonious chats\nwith the girls--Silk's attempt to save Fava's life, however, is truly\nheroic.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He is a serial adulterer, (even before the affair with Seawrack if I\nread the clues right) who sells the lives of Nettle and his sons to\nKrait to save his own life. He sneaks off on his mission without\nsaying\ngoodbye to his wife, tricks Seawrack and Babbie into missing the\nlander\nand deserts Evensong on the river even though he knows she can't go\nback\nto Goa or to her own people and is in serious danger. All of these\nactions are rationalised by a most persuasive narrator, one who\nconstantly bemoans his lost wife. The more I read these passages, the\nmore they sound like a drunken trucker in a bar telling all and sundry\nhow much he loves his wife before going to the local whorehouse.\n(What is this thing Wolfe has with his heroes deserting their female\ncompanions by rivers or the sea, Sevarian does it with Dorcas, and I\ncan\nthink of few Wolfe characters who are married and faithful.)\n\nHorn is not a terrific father either. I'm sure all of us with teenage\nkids can sympathise with a father getting annoyed with sulky\nadolescent\nsons, but Horn actively hates poor old Sinew, even after he follows\nhim\non the long and dangerous journey to Pajoruco. He takes pleasure in\nshocking his son by showing his relationship with Seawrack. He\nsuspects\nSinew of wanting to kill him, and considers killing Sinew himself. He\nonly makes some reconciliation with his son after the fighting on the\nlander when he is forced to admit that his son has some good\nqualities.\n\nHorn is a careless and violent man, blaming others for his own\nmistakes.\nHe loses all of the supplies that he was given for his mission, and\nthen\nviolently beats the man who was supposed to be looking after the boat,\nalthough he had no proof that he was involved in the theft.\n\nBut worst of all is the savage and brutal rape of Seawrack. His excuse\nis that he was acting under enchantment from the Siren's song. (I\ndon't\nsee that standing up in a court of law: \"Honest, Judge, she was asking\nfor it. She sang at me.\") I would argue that, even though Seawrack may\nhave seduced him with her singing, the brutallity of the attack comes\nfrom Horn's character. It must have been pretty bad if he is advising\nher not to go swimming afterwards because the bleeding may start\nagain.\nIt makes you wonder what his sex life with Nettle was like, and may\nexplain why she was willing to go off with the new, improved Silk at\nthe\nend of RTTW.\n\n(As an aside, I know that Wolfe's attitude to women has been\ncriticised\nbefore, but these books do seem to bring out the worst in him. Women\nseem to be inconvenient accessories, to be picked up or dumped at the\nhero's convenience. And I found Silk's chats to the teenage girls\nalmost\nembarrassingly unreal)\n\nSo, I don't like Horn. This makes his transformation into Silk more\nnoticable and dramatic, and may explain why his character is almost\ncompletely erased by the end. I say almost, because the killing of\nJahlee at the end of RTTW could have been the emergence of the violent\nnature of Horn, showing Silk that he was not fully redeemed and not\nquite the saint that he thought he was. An explanation for his refusal\nto stay on Blue and become their leader because the danger of the\ncorruption of power was still in him?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Parmenter", "address": "dan at lec.com" }, "date": "2001-04-16T09:57:53+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) re: Bad Horn", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Allan Lloyd \n\naka \"Wooly Bug\" :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Despite my reservations about the conclusion of the Short Sun trilogy, I\nwant to talk about something which Wolfe does very well in the books,\nnamely the transformation of sinful Horn into saintly Silk. No-one seems\nto have remarked upon what a totally unpleasant character Horn is at the\nstart of OBW." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's been noted in passing, though never really discussed. I\ncertainly noticed it; indeed, I also noticed traces of it in my third\nread of the LS books, how Horn magnifies his role subtly, how little\nwe hear of the other students, etc. I think that this is all\nconsistent with what seems to me his one unmistakably redeeming\nquality: his insatiable urge to write. If, as I have suggested in the\npast, at least something of Horn remains in our protaganist at the end\nof RTTW it may well be his qualities as a self-propagandist. Note the\nsimilarity with another unpleasant Wolfe protaganist who writes a lot\nand goes through some moral development of his own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He is a serial adulterer, (even before the affair with Seawrack if I\nread the clues right) who sells the lives of Nettle and his sons to\nKrait to save his own life. He sneaks off on his mission without saying\ngoodbye to his wife, tricks Seawrack and Babbie into missing the lander\nand deserts Evensong on the river even though he knows she can't go back\nto Goa or to her own people and is in serious danger. All of these\nactions are rationalised by a most persuasive narrator, one who\nconstantly bemoans his lost wife. The more I read these passages, the\nmore they sound like a drunken trucker in a bar telling all and sundry\nhow much he loves his wife before going to the local whorehouse.\n(What is this thing Wolfe has with his heroes deserting their female\ncompanions by rivers or the sea, Sevarian does it with Dorcas, and I can\nthink of few Wolfe characters who are married and faithful.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Severian couldn't realistically continue a relationship with his\ngrandmama, now could he? And who left who? There's the off-camera\nyears with Valeria, but that never seemed very convincing to me,\nespecially given her portrayal in URTH." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But worst of all is the savage and brutal rape of Seawrack. His excuse\nis that he was acting under enchantment from the Siren's song. (I don't\nsee that standing up in a court of law: \"Honest, Judge, she was asking\nfor it. She sang at me.\") I would argue that, even though Seawrack may\nhave seduced him with her singing, the brutallity of the attack comes\nfrom Horn's character. It must have been pretty bad if he is advising\nher not to go swimming afterwards because the bleeding may start again.\nIt makes you wonder what his sex life with Nettle was like, and may\nexplain why she was willing to go off with the new, improved Silk at the\nend of RTTW." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've long wanted to have some discussion of rape in Wolfe's novels.\nThat sounds rather unsavory, but it comes up often enough in his\nstories that one starts to wonder about his views on it. The Seawrack\nincident, as you point out, seems like a pretty damning indictment of\nHorn, yet the song clearly did play a role." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Allan (and it is Allan and not Adam {Alga!}\nor Mr Lloyd, please. I don't want to take a Wolfean nom-de-plume; if my\nwife discovered I was signing myself Wooly Mammoth or Bug she wouldn't\nstop laughing all week. These names are very psychologically revealing,\nyou know.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I'm very aware that I have named myself for a product made from\ninsect goo (as silk is) and once used for phonograph recordings. It's\nall rather \"fannish\" I suppose, but occasionally I find it amsusing.\nI used to laugh out loud at whoever it was who signed as \"Sergeant\nRock\", being an occasional DC war comics fan. \n\nShellac\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2001-04-16T23:55:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Bad Horn", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:43 AM +0000 2/19/00, Allan Lloyd wrote:\nAnd Crowley's \"Daemonomania\". Words fail me. Is there any discussion of\nCrowley's work on the web? On a second reading, I've just started to\nrealise how much of the historical part which I had assumed was fantasy\nis based on John Dee's actual life and works; and how much the realistic\npresent day sections are mutating into fantasy as Crowley's world\nchanges. I can't wait for the final novel in the sequence. Does anyone\nhave any idea how long it is likely to be before he finishes it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At last, a perfect opportunity!\n\nThe answer to your question is yes and no. There is a Crowley \ndiscussion group* on line, but there hasn't been much discussion for \nquite a while. This is at least partly because there are only seven \nmembers in the group right now, which seems to be below the critical \nmass.\n\nThis group is in the form of a Yahoo! Club. You can receive messages \nby email but you have to visit the web site to post messages. \nHowever, the emails contain links to take you directly to the proper \nweb page. You can see the archive of the messages so far at the link \nbelow:\n\nhttp://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/johncrowleyreaders\n\nIf you want to join you will have to send an email to Teresa Toro, \nthe club founder, asking her to invite you.\n\nAnd now my apologies to the list. I know some of you have already \nreceived invitations to join this \"club;\" I am sorry if my bringing \nit up again is inconvenient or annoying. I am posting this message to \nthe list because I know there are many who did not receive an \ninvitation, especially lurkers. I apologize for cross-posting this \nmessage, but I want to make sure that I reach people who may only be \nsubscribed to the Urth list and are interested in signing up.\n\nI think this has the potential to lead to a good discussion group, \ndespite the off-putting fact that is it called a club and the \noff-putting commercial connotations of it being associated with \nYahoo!, but it seems certain that it will only work if there are more \nmembers.\n\nWilliam Ansley\n\n*There , of course, may be much Crowley discussion on the Internet \nelsewhere that I am not aware of.\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-04-16T23:05:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Bad Horn", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "on 2/19/00 5:43 AM, Allan Lloyd at lloyd at nexus.kc3.co.uk wrote:\n\nA very good post, Allan." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Despite my reservations about the conclusion of the Short Sun trilogy, I\nwant to talk about something which Wolfe does very well in the books,\nnamely the transformation of sinful Horn into saintly Silk. No-one seems\nto have remarked upon what a totally unpleasant character Horn is at the\nstart of OBW." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I actually raised some of these points in a post entitled \"Horn as\nantihero?\" (in the Whorl Archives, vol. 10, between a post dates 3/31/00 and\none dated 4/1/00), although I was not as hard on him as you are. I talked\nabout Horn's betrayal of his family to Krait and rape of Seawrack; also\nabout his digging up inhumi to use against the Hannese, which I said could\nbe considered equivalent to biological warfare." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He is a serial adulterer, (even before the affair with Seawrack if I\nread the clues right)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What are these clues?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "who sells the lives of Nettle and his sons to\nKrait to save his own life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This gave me quite a shock when I first read it; but in Horn's defense he'd\nbeen isolated and without food and water, and so was extremely vulnerable to\nKrait's psychological manipulation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Horn is not a terrific father either. I'm sure all of us with teenage\nkids can sympathise with a father getting annoyed with sulky adolescent\nsons, but Horn actively hates poor old Sinew, even after he follows him\non the long and dangerous journey to Pajoruco. He takes pleasure in\nshocking his son by showing his relationship with Seawrack. He suspects\nSinew of wanting to kill him, and considers killing Sinew himself. He\nonly makes some reconciliation with his son after the fighting on the\nlander when he is forced to admit that his son has some good qualities." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Horn does indeed have some sort of a complex about Sinew. Otoh, the\ndialogue on p. 368 of RttW makes it clear that Sinew is indeed troubled, at\nleast; it is not all Horn's imagination (though how much of it was caused by\nHorn's dislike of Sinew we don't know)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But worst of all is the savage and brutal rape of Seawrack. His excuse\nis that he was acting under enchantment from the Siren's song. (I don't\nsee that standing up in a court of law: \"Honest, Judge, she was asking\nfor it. She sang at me.\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To be precise, it is Seawrack who says that the song excuses the rape\n(unless Horn is lying, of course). As Rostrum points out, Horn himself\ntakes full responsibility.\n\nOverall, you've given me a lot to think about. I would have to reread OBW\nagain with your points in mind to decide whether I thought your harsh\njudgment was justified." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Crowley's \"Daemonomania\". Words fail me. Is there any discussion of\nCrowley's work on the web?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The urth list had a big discussion about Crowley a while back; but it was\nbefore DAEMONOMANIA came out, iirc, and didn't say much about the other two\nbooks in the sequence. It was mainly about LITTLE, BIG, with excursi into\n\"Great Work of Time\" and THE DEEP. There's a Yahoo club devoted to John\nCrowley, but it has very little activity.\n\nIf you're seriously interested in Crowley, get the Crowley chapbook mantis\nrecently announced on the urth list. (I'll be posting more on it on the\nurth list.) Aside from anything else, it contains a seven-page interview\nwith Crowley himself in which he discusses in detail the thinking behind the\nAegypt series." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't wait for the final novel in the sequence. Does anyone\nhave any idea how long it is likely to be before he finishes it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the interview I mentioned above, Crowley says that \"the last book ...\nwill be set in the present, 2002 or so.\" Make of this what you will.\n\nBefore it appears, there'll be a standalone novel, already completed,\nentitled THE TRANSLATORS. There are conflicting reports on rasfw as to its\nnature: Kevin Maroney believes it's \"a science fiction novel with angels as\nmajor characters\" (I just realized that angels, or beings called angels, do\nseem to show up rather a lot in Crowley's work--aside from the Aegypt\nseries, there are the angels in GWoT and the \"angels\" in ES), but another\nposter quotes LOCUS as saying it's a mainstream novel.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }