{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1359", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1359, "subject": "Not-So Bad Horn", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2001-04-16T17:32:43+00:00", "last": "2001-04-17T00:28:28+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-16T17:32:43+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Not-So Bad Horn", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I agree that Horn has serious flaws, I think you're exaggerating\nthings here to try to make your point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 19 Feb 2000, Allan Lloyd wrote:\nHorn is not a terrific father either. I'm sure all of us with teenage\nkids can sympathise with a father getting annoyed with sulky adolescent\nsons, but Horn actively hates poor old Sinew, even after he follows him\non the long and dangerous journey to Pajoruco. He takes pleasure in\nshocking his son by showing his relationship with Seawrack. He suspects\nSinew of wanting to kill him, and considers killing Sinew himself. He\nonly makes some reconciliation with his son after the fighting on the\nlander when he is forced to admit that his son has some good qualities." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll give you most of this one, but my impression was more that Horn\ntragically misunderstands his son. It's pretty obvious Sinew loves Horn\nat some level, but Horn is convinced Sinew hates him and views every\naction through that belief, imagining malign motives for obvious gestures\nof love. \n\nWhat we're missing is how Horn came to view Sinew this way. Near the\nbeginning of OBW, Horn offers Sinew a look through his telescope (or\nsomething like that) and remarks \"I instantly regretted it. It was always\na mistake to show him the least kindness.\" Apparently Horn feels like his\nattempts to love Sinew have been consistently rebuffed. How much of that\nhas been Horn's misperception from the beginning, we don't know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Horn is a careless and violent man, blaming others for his own mistakes.\nHe loses all of the supplies that he was given for his mission, and then\nviolently beats the man who was supposed to be looking after the boat,\nalthough he had no proof that he was involved in the theft." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Loses\" them? He asks the guy to watch his boat, and when he comes back\nhis stuff is gone and the guy has no explanation for what happened to it. \nI can see criticizing Horn for resolving the dispute with violence (though\nwe don't know who threw the first punch) but I can't see faulting Horn for\nblaming the guy, and it's pretty harsh to call this careless. Naive,\nmaybe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But worst of all is the savage and brutal rape of Seawrack. His excuse\nis that he was acting under enchantment from the Siren's song. (I don't\nsee that standing up in a court of law: \"Honest, Judge, she was asking\nfor it. She sang at me.\") I would argue that, even though Seawrack may\nhave seduced him with her singing, the brutality of the attack comes\nfrom Horn's character. It must have been pretty bad if he is advising\nher not to go swimming afterwards because the bleeding may start again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think you have enough evidence for an indictment here. Seawrack\nand the Mother are sufficiently uncanny that it's at least possible\nSeawrack's song would compel a man to act that way. Even from a distance,\nit seems to have some sort of maddening effect on that officer Incanto\nmeets defending Blanko. Short of having Seawrack sing for other men and\nwatching what happens, I don't think we can say how much of that incident\nreflects Horn's own brutality. \n\n(Is Chenille responsible for the things she did when Kypris was possessing\nher? Is Silk responsible for the things he did under Horn's influence? \nHow much responsibility do people possessed by Mucor bear for their\nactions? There's a lot of different kinds of mind-control in this series. \nI don't think we know enough to pass judgment.)\n\nAt a minimum, Horn is at fault and bears responsibility for insisting that\nSeawrack sing for him. \n\nBut what does Horn think about the rape? He says that the fault is his\nown, and he says the song is no excuse, but he does mention it, possibly\nwanting his readers to excuse him. (Of course this is Silk|Horn writing. \nIs Silk dragging an honest confession from a rapist who wants to excuse\nhimself, or is Silk finding the true cause behind Horn's attempt to blame\nhimself?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, I don't like Horn. This makes his transformation into Silk more\nnoticable and dramatic, and may explain why his character is almost\ncompletely erased by the end. I say almost, because the killing of\nJahlee at the end of RTTW could have been the emergence of the violent\nnature of Horn, showing Silk that he was not fully redeemed and not\nquite the saint that he thought he was. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the Book of Silk is accurate on this point, Silk has always been quite\naware of his own faults and did not think of himself as a saint. \n\nAnd while Silk|Horn's killing of Jahlee was wrong, I think it's extremely\nunderstandable, considering the danger to Nettle and the depth of Jahlee's\nbetrayal. In spite of Silk's contributions to the whole thing, it is\namazing that Horn could learn to love as a daughter the creature that\nalmost killed Sinew, leading to a major rift in his marriage to Nettle. \nTo bring Jahlee to Lizard was a huge imposition on Nettle, requiring her\nto put a lot of trust in Silk and/or Horn. It's not just Silk|Horn's\ntrust in Jahlee that is broken, but Nettle's trust in Silk|Horn.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2001-04-17T00:28:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Not-So Bad Horn", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 5:32 PM -0400 4/16/01, Michael Straight wrote:\nOn Sat, 19 Feb 2000, Allan Lloyd wrote:\n > Horn is a careless and violent man, blaming others for his own mistakes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " He loses all of the supplies that he was given for his mission, and then\n violently beats the man who was supposed to be looking after the boat,\n although he had no proof that he was involved in the theft." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Loses\" them? He asks the guy to watch his boat, and when he comes back\nhis stuff is gone and the guy has no explanation for what happened to it. \nI can see criticizing Horn for resolving the dispute with violence (though\nwe don't know who threw the first punch) but I can't see faulting Horn for\nblaming the guy, and it's pretty harsh to call this careless. Naive,\nmaybe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have always been puzzled by this passage. If the guy Horn asked to \nwatch his boat was involved with the robbery, then *Why* did he stick \naround? In fact, if he wasn't involved in the robbery but had just \nleft the boat unguarded, why did he come back and why did he stick \naround when he saw that all the stuff had been stolen?\n\nTo me, it seems as if the boat-watcher is just guilty of gross \nstupidity or fecklessness. This may warrant a beating, but I don't \nthink a good man, or even a man who had any control over his temper, \nwould have given him one.\n\nWilliam Ansley\n\nP.S. Horn does have one very important trait for a violent man to \npossess. He does seem pretty good at judging who he can beat up. \n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }