{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1360", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1360, "subject": "Digest whorl.v012.n101", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-04-17T02:26:05+00:00", "last": "2001-04-17T11:33:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Timothy Reilly", "address": "treilly at ozemail.com.au" }, "date": "2001-04-17T02:26:05+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n101", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Kieran Cleary wrote of my querying the quote from \"Father\" re Typhon's\ndaughter Scylla at p 360 of RTTW (\"the daughter who had pledged herself in\nsecret to one of the sea gods of the Short Sun Whorl that would in time\nbecome our Red Sun Whorl\"):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'Short Sun Whorl' is a generic term. The particular SS Whorl mentioned\nhere is the one 'that would in time become our RS Whorl', i.e. Urth.\nNothing more than that, I think." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Short Sun Whorl\" in the series is most often a reference to the Blue/Green\nsystem, though I agree that it is occasionally used generically to indicate\nplanetary systems in general rather than the Long Sun. But IIRC when used\ngenerically it is (as you'd expect) not capitalised. Nevertheless I agree\nthat the sentence can only be read as \"Short Sun Whorl\" being used\ngenerically, despite the capitalization. Another proofreading lapse?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You'll find Clute's review at\n\nhttp://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue197/excess.html" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote of my description of astral travel as \"nonsense\":" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Modulo the idea that it was \"nonsense,\" yes. Mr. Wolfe, who writes\n\"science-fantasy\" (more accurately: he writes science fiction that\nmakes some different assumptions about the nature of physical\nreality than do most SF writers), is entitled to posit astral travel\nif he chooses; dislike it if you choose, but to call it nonsense wrt\nWolfe's universe-of-discourse seems rather petty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Petty\"...well it substantially decreased my enjoyment of the series, and\nleads directly to the issue discussed previously as to whether Wolfe is\nwriting Science Fiction or Science Fantasy. It is something of a\ndisappointment to find it's the latter after the earlier books in this\n\"universe of discourse\" (TBNS and TBLS) suggested the former. As I've asked\nbefore, why doesn't the Narrator try to astral travel to Seawrack or Nettle\n(the two places he repeatedly says he wants to be) once he's discovered this\nuseful ability? The rules of astral travel don't seem sufficiently clear to\nrule this out. Instead he goes (involuntarily it seems) to Green, and (it\nseems eventually voluntarily) to Urth. The problem with giving characters\nthese magic abilities is that it's irritating when they don't use them (or\nat least try to use them) in the way that would be rational given the\nmotivations they've described.\n\nPlus, there's no plausible mechanism for astral travel even suggested,\nunlike the mirrors in TBNS or the descriptions in LS of how the gods possess\npeople. I wouldn't mind so much if SS was unconnected with these - but as\nyou point out, it's not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "RTTW lacked the lyricism of both OBW and (to a lesser extent)\nIGJ and for me was too full of the juvenilia of the LS series." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Juvenilia of the LS series? What on _earth_ are you talking about?\nLONG is quite possibly the most mature sf series I have ever read." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What on _urth_ I'm talking about is that TBLS is IMHO (and not only mine...)\nclearly juvenilia by the standards Wolfe established in TBNS, especially in\nterms of narrative style but also content. I won't repeat discussions that\nare in the archives. Obviously such aesthetic judgments involve matters of\nopinion. That's mine.\n\nAnd really, what _is_ all this stuff about the past, future or present \"gods\nof Blue\"? Some seem to be space aliens (the Mother), some Long Sun computer\nscans of human beings (Pas et al) that in some unexplained way may or may\nnot in future take up residence on Blue, some are related to the Neighbours,\nPLUS there's the \"real\" God the Outsider. How many gods does a planet need?\nAre the \"minor\" gods of the LS whorl all originally other friends etc of\nTyphon (eg Kypris)? Seems logical, but then who are the likely candidates\nfor eg Quadrifons? What does \"god\"' mean in the LS and SS series? It's one\nthing to have a society ruled by computer scans of former people who are\ntreated as gods (LS); it's another to have a planet where \"god\" means all or\nany of the above.\n\nTim\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-17T11:16:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n101", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Timothy Reilly wrote:\nAnd really, what _is_ all this stuff about the past, future or present \"gods\nof Blue\"? Some seem to be space aliens (the Mother), some Long Sun computer\nscans of human beings (Pas et al) that in some unexplained way may or may\nnot in future take up residence on Blue, some are related to the Neighbours,\nPLUS there's the \"real\" God the Outsider. How many gods does a planet need?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The best estimate I can make, based on my available sample of one planet,\nis thousands and thousands (Thor, Aphrodite, Molech, Baal, Allah, YHWH,\nJesus, Shiva, Ganesha, Aura Mainyu, Cuchullin, Gaia, Isis, Ra, Brahma,\nKartar, Thetans, the August Personage of Jade, Cthulhu...). Some seem to\nbe space aliens, some seem to be deified human beings that may or may not\nin the future take up residence on Earth, some are related to indigenous\npeoples, PLUS there's the \"real\" God...\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-04-17T11:33:49+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n101", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Timothy Reilly objected to my use of the word \"petty\" wrt Wolfe's\nuse of astral travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Petty\"...well it substantially decreased my enjoyment of the\nseries, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would suggest that this has far more to do with your expectations\nof what is and what isn't \"science fiction\" than to do with the \nquality of the writing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and leads directly to the issue discussed previously as to\nwhether Wolfe is writing Science Fiction or Science Fantasy. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I stand by my claim: Mr Wolfe is writing science fiction, but does\nnot make the same assumptions most SF writers do about the nature\nof (physical and other) reality. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "t is something of a disappointment to find it's the latter\nafter the earlier books in this \"universe of discourse\" (TBNS\nand TBLS) suggested the former. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Granted NEW made some handwaving attempts to offer pseudoscientific \nexplanations for ... some of ... the Miracles of Severian, how \nanyone can read LONG without recognizing right up front that Silk's \nenlightenment on page one is an unvarnished miracle is quite beyond\nme. NEW is, in Mr Wolfe's own words, an attempt at theodicy -- \"the\njustification of the ways of God to Man.\" LONG is (among many,\nmany other things) an extended meditation on the process of Divine\nrevelation. It is perhaps best read in light of the SOLDIER books;\nMr Wolfe has some very definite opinions (well, perhaps \"opinions\" \nis too strong a word: \"speculations\") about the reality of Pagan \ngods. I have long suspected that if Mr Wolfe had continued that series\nLatro would have had some experience or experiences leading him to \nor towards monotheism.\n\nNo; if \"the intrusion of the miraculous into the story\" forces a\nbook into the pigeonhole labelled \"Science Fantasy,\" then LONG and\nNEW belong in that pigeonhole quite as much as does SHORT." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I've asked before, why doesn't the Narrator try to astral\ntravel to Seawrack or Nettle (the two places he repeatedly says\nhe wants to be) once he's discovered this useful ability? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why he doesn't _try_ is an interesting question and may reveal\nsomething about the Narr; or it may perhaps be an omission on Mr\nWolfe's part. \"Even Homer nods.\"\n\nI think it is fairly clear, though, that it could not have \nsucceeded -- Horn seems to be able to astral-travel (a) only in \nthe presence of an inhum[u|a] and (b) only to places that someone \nwith whome he is astral-travelling has been, i.e., to Green \n(because all the inhumi have been there, pretty much by definition) \nor Urth (because wossisface of Soldo has been there)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The rules of astral travel don't seem sufficiently clear to\nrule this out. Instead he goes (involuntarily it seems) to \nGreen, and (it seems eventually voluntarily) to Urth. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hoom. I think it's a bit more complicated than that. _First_ he\ngoes involuntarily to Green. Later, he goes semi-voluntarily to\nGreen. In _Return_, he goes (I believe) voluntarily to Green. His\nfirst trip to Urth is semi-accidental. His final trip to Urth is\nquite deliberate, and is possible only because Scaldin' Scylla,\nwho is present in Oreb, has been there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The problem with giving characters these magic abilities is that\nit's irritating when they don't use them (or at least try to use\nthem) in the way that would be rational given the motivations\nthey've described." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, agreed in principle; the question then is whether this is \na failure on Mr Wolfe's part (as it might be) or some clue to\nthe actual (as opposed to claimed) motivations of the Narr. Given\nMr Wolfe's demonstrated skill as a writer of unreliable narrators,\nI think it is at least worth while to spend some time (a year or\nso) living with the assumption that there is something more there\nbefore tossing the books aside as miswritten." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Plus, there's no plausible mechanism for astral travel even\nsuggested, unlike the mirrors in TBNS or the descriptions in LS\nof how the gods possess people. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But very much like the transmogrification of water to wine in NEW \nand the enlightenment of Silk in LONG..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Juvenilia of the LS series? What on _earth_ are you talking about?\nLONG is quite possibly the most mature sf series I have ever read." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What on _urth_ I'm talking about is that TBLS is IMHO (and not only \nmine...) clearly juvenilia by the standards Wolfe established in TBNS,\nespecially in terms of narrative style but also content. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting: I would say that in terms of style, LONG manages the \nsubtlety of NEW without the outright obscurity. In terms of content,\nwell, chacun à son gout et tout comme ça, but I see the difference\nbetween a story which, when the cool stuff is stripped away, is\nbascially about what leadership and sacrifice really are, and a \nstory which, when the _really_ cool stuff is stripped away, is \nbasically standard SF wish-fulfillment about the young outcast's \nrise to power. And the latter by you is more mature? Ah, well...\n\n(Mind you, I am not dismissing NEW as juvenilia by any means.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And really, what _is_ all this stuff about the past, future or\npresent \"gods of Blue\"? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Early days yet; I can't say." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How many gods does a planet need?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One ... provided it's the _right_ God. 8*)\n\nAs Michael S. pointed out, the only example we have to point at\nsuggests that, however many gods a planet actually _needs_, it\nseems to accumulate rather terrifying numbers of them. At times\nthe history of Earth religions makes Dunsany's \"Gods of Pegana\"\nlook quite plausible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are the \"minor\" gods of the LS whorl all originally other friends\netc of Typhon (eg Kypris)? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. The Outsider is \"a minor god.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What does \"god\"' mean in the LS and SS series? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a deliberately ambiguous, multivalued and multiordinal term.\nThe Outsider is _not_ a god in the same sense as the Mother. Neither\nis a god in the same sense as Pas. None of these is a god in the\nsame sense that Scylla-in-Oreb is a goddess. Furthermore, Pas and \nPassilk and Kypris, all in Mainframe, are not gods in quite the \nsame sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's one thing to have a society ruled by computer scans of former\npeople who are treated as gods (LS); it's another to have a planet\nwhere \"god\" means all or any of the above." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, it is. And your point is? I mean, ambiguity from Wolfe?\nWho'd'a thunk it?\n\n--Dan'l\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }