{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1367", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1367, "subject": "Digest whorl.v012.n105", "messages": 6, "voices": 5, "first": "2001-04-18T11:27:28+00:00", "last": "2001-04-19T11:11:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "akt", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2001-04-18T13:28:48+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n105", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From Shellac:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I'm very aware that I have named myself for a product made from\ninsect goo (as silk is) and once used for phonograph recordings. It's\nall rather \"fannish\" I suppose, but occasionally I find it amsusing.\nI used to laugh out loud at whoever it was who signed as \"Sergeant\nRock\", being an occasional DC war comics fan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I miss the Sarge. If you are still out there, could you please give us a\nsalute, for old times?\n\nFrom Ratty:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Women to be picked up and dumped at will. Well, we all know\nthat\nthe Odyssey is partly behind this narrative, and Odysseus was hardly a\nmodel of faithfulness to his wife. What is of note, though I don't\nknow how\nmuch Wolfe has thought about this, is that pre-Christian heroes like\nOdysseus don't really undergo the kind of moral transformation we have\ncome\nto expect in literature of the Christian (and \"post-Christian\") era.\nOdysseus does not change as a result of his descent into Hades; no\n\"death\nand moral resurrection\" here; and he's about as vicious at the end as\nhe\nhas been all along. But both Horn and Severian are becoming better\npeople,\nthough not very dramatically. They make a little progress, not great\nprogress. In the case of Horn, it's Silk's influence, in various ways.\n Rape? Hey, what else are women for? Sure, MY WIFE is to be\nprotected (and maybe yours also, if you're my equal), but the rest are\nfair\ngame, to be used at will. That's the \"ancient heroic\" attitude, pretty\nmuch. (Though Homer was not totally blind to the problem, as the first\nbook\nof the Iliad shows.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ratty, while I appreciate the general tone of your screed, I have to\nobject to its specifics (well, you knew I would, didn't you?).\nSpecifically, then, not only is there no rape in The Odyssey, but women\nare treated as powerful and controlling figures. There are four\nimportant featured players, as I recall: Calypso, Circe, Nausica and\nPenelope. Helen and Athena are significant background figures, while the\nwomen he encounters at the boundary of Hades are formidable, if\nsorrowful. Nausica is only a girl, but as a princess she compels\nrespect, and much of the story is told directly to her and her father.\nNo one could possibly call the other women victims. The outlook is so\nfeminist that Samuel Butler, in fact, speculated that the true author of\nThe Odyssey was a woman (Robert Graves concurred, alo c.f. Harold Bloom\nand -The Book of J-). Women in the Greek plays get somewhat similar\ntreatment. (I hedge because this is a big subject and could be argued\nfor a long time; also there is the actual position of women in Greek\nsociety, which was not so hot.) The Iliad, granted, is different, a war\nstory, and two women are treated as sex slaves. Their male counterparts\nwere slaughtered, however--plus ca change.\n\nLet's go even further back, to Gilgamesh. At its opening, G, the king\nand partly divine as well, is having his swinish way with the\nabout-to-be brides of the town (droit de seigneur). But, significantly,\nthe entire populace objects and appeals to the gods, which sets the plot\nin motion. The other women of the epic, the ritual prostitute who\nhumanizes Enkidu, G's mother Ninsun (a minor goddess, to be sure), and\nthe uncanny tavernkeeper (who has a name that I've forgotten) are\ntreated with great respect. The *dis*respect G and Enkidu show to the\ngoddess Inanna is punished direly. The Scorpion Woman and Ziasudra's\nwife (OK, as wives you've accounted for these) get equal billing, even\nthough Z's wife doesn't have a name. (Neither does Mrs. Noah.)\n\nSo I object to your thesis of Wolfe's using epic as an excuse. Epic is\nmore complicated than that. And I hardly think the Middle Eastern view\nof women served up by the Bible--multiple wives and concubines, Mary and\nMartha etc.--is more progressive. Let's not forget that Mary's\nimpregnation was exactly the same as that of Zeus's numerous\nladyfriends. She didn't exactly ask for it, did she?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Wolfe, I'm sure, is quite sympathetic to some of the concerns\nof\nfeminism. Men have very often treated women very badly, historically,\nand\nWolfe wants us to think about this fact.\n Rape and also the sexual abuse of children is pretty damn\ncommon,\nand he's trying to deal with it. It's clear that HE does not approve\nof it.\nWhere traditional epics like the Odyssey might find Odysseus'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "adulteries" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"good stuff,\" and the Kalevala presents Lemmenkainen's fornications as\nhumorous, it's pretty clear that Horn's and Severian's follies are not\nheld\nup for our amusement. Even in Jack Vance, though Cugel gets his\ncomeuppance, his dalliances are presented as light humor. I don't\nthink\nWolfe ever presents adultery or fornication that way. Wolfe's\n\"realism\" is\ndesigned to make us uncomfortable, but I don't think his own moral\nperspective is hard to discern." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I leave this up to others.\n\nFrom Rostrum:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At a minimum, Horn is at fault and bears responsibility for insisting\nthat\nSeawrack sing for him.\n\nBut what does Horn think about the rape? He says that the fault is\nhis\nown, and he says the song is no excuse, but he does mention it,\npossibly\nwanting his readers to excuse him. (Of course this is Silk|Horn\nwriting.\nIs Silk dragging an honest confession from a rapist who wants to\nexcuse\nhimself, or is Silk finding the true cause behind Horn's attempt to\nblame\nhimself?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To have her bleeding to the point she cannot swim? Perhaps you are\nexcusing him too much. Until the Wooly Bug's post, I tended to do that\ntoo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And while Silk|Horn's killing of Jahlee was wrong, I think it's\nextremely\nunderstandable, considering the danger to Nettle and the depth of\nJahlee's\nbetrayal. In spite of Silk's contributions to the whole thing, it is\namazing that Horn could learn to love as a daughter the creature that\nalmost killed Sinew, leading to a major rift in his marriage to\nNettle.\nTo bring Jahlee to Lizard was a huge imposition on Nettle, requiring\nher\nto put a lot of trust in Silk and/or Horn. It's not just Silk|Horn's\ntrust in Jahlee that is broken, but Nettle's trust in Silk|Horn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, this is the point that I bump up against. Why, when so much of\nthese books, or this book as we might as well call it, has to do with\nS/H's coming not only to terms, but coming to love as a father these\nthree demonic creatures--a subject I found truly enthralling and worthy\nof serious contemplation--does he throw it all away so quickly? He\nstarted way back with Quetzal, an interesting, complicated character.\nThe end of RttW seems to make trivial a huge investment of effort in a\nreally chewy subject.\n\nFrom Tim, re astral travel:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Petty\"...well it substantially decreased my enjoyment of the series,\nand\nleads directly to the issue discussed previously as to whether Wolfe\nis\nwriting Science Fiction or Science Fantasy. It is something of a\ndisappointment to find it's the latter after the earlier books in this\n\"universe of discourse\" (TBNS and TBLS) suggested the former. As I've\nasked\nbefore, why doesn't the Narrator try to astral travel to Seawrack or\nNettle\n(the two places he repeatedly says he wants to be) once he's\ndiscovered this\nuseful ability? The rules of astral travel don't seem sufficiently\nclear to\nrule this out. Instead he goes (involuntarily it seems) to Green, and\n(it\nseems eventually voluntarily) to Urth. The problem with giving\ncharacters\nthese magic abilities is that it's irritating when they don't use them\n(or\nat least try to use them) in the way that would be rational given the\nmotivations they've described." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This bothered me a lot on first reading. I got over it, for sheer\nenjoyment of the other worlds, but never completely--bringing it up\nmakes me uneasy again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What on _urth_ I'm talking about is that TBLS is IMHO (and not only\nmine...)\nclearly juvenilia by the standards Wolfe established in TBNS,\nespecially in\nterms of narrative style but also content. I won't repeat discussions\nthat\nare in the archives. Obviously such aesthetic judgments involve\nmatters of\nopinion. That's mine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I felt *exactly* the same way. And am in the archives as saying so. What\nbrought me around is admiration for the plot structure, which is\nformidable (*unlike* that of SS, which seems, well, sloppy--complicated\nbut sloppy).\n\n-alga\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-18T13:56:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n105", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "alga wrote:\nSo I object to your thesis of Wolfe's using epic as an excuse. Epic\nis more complicated than that. And I hardly think the Middle Eastern\nview of women served up by the Bible--multiple wives and concubines,\nMary and Martha etc.--is more progressive. Let's not forget that\nMary's impregnation was exactly the same as that of Zeus's numerous\nladyfriends. She didn't exactly ask for it, did she?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not that this isn't purely a tangent, but actually in Luke 1 the angel\nannounces things to come to Mary before she is pregnant, and Mary says\n\"May it be to me as you have said.\" So, in fact, her consent is\ngiven. Indeed, in some sense the Magnificat is a poetic expression of\nthe same sentiment." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-04-18T11:27:28+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n105", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alga oozed:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let's not forget that Mary's impregnation was exactly the same \nas that of Zeus's numerous ladyfriends. She didn't exactly ask\nfor it, did she?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well... yes. Check out the Gospel according to Luke (the _only_\naccount of the Annunciation to Mary -- Mt. has an account of the\nAnnunciation to Joseph, a different matter). The angel tells her\nwhat God has in mind, and Mary says, \"Let it be done to me,\" and\nproceeds a few paragraphs (but possibly several months) later to\nsing one of the finest psalms in the Bible in praise of God for\ndoing this very thing. \n\nOkay, it's a man's account told decades later: but (a) if we're\ntalking about the text we have, then there's no point in saying\n\"yeah, but\" — the text is the text; and (b) this text is the \nonly evidence we have at all, one way or another: you certainly\ncan't support your claim simply by saying \"there is no evidence\nat all.\"\n\n--Dan'l\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2001-04-18T13:32:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n105", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:28 PM 4/18/2001 -0400, Slimy wrote:\nRatty, while I appreciate the general tone of your screed, I have to\nobject to its specifics (well, you knew I would, didn't you?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Sure I did, Slimy. It was my purpose to draw you back into the \ndiscussion. ;-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Specifically, then, not only is there no rape in The Odyssey, but women\nare treated as powerful and controlling figures. There are four\nimportant featured players, as I recall: Calypso, Circe, Nausica and\nPenelope. Helen and Athena are significant background figures, while the\nwomen he encounters at the boundary of Hades are formidable, if\nsorrowful. Nausica is only a girl, but as a princess she compels\nrespect, and much of the story is told directly to her and her father.\nNo one could possibly call the other women victims. The outlook is so\nfeminist that Samuel Butler, in fact, speculated that the true author of\nThe Odyssey was a woman (Robert Graves concurred, alo c.f. Harold Bloom\nand -The Book of J-). Women in the Greek plays get somewhat similar\ntreatment. (I hedge because this is a big subject and could be argued\nfor a long time; also there is the actual position of women in Greek\nsociety, which was not so hot.) The Iliad, granted, is different, a war\nstory, and two women are treated as sex slaves. Their male counterparts\nwere slaughtered, however--plus ca change." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " snip\n\n Okay. Good point. Instead of using the Greeks, I should have \nsimply pointed to the history of the world in general.\n\nsnip\n\nYes, this is the point that I bump up against. Why, when so much of" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "these books, or this book as we might as well call it, has to do with\nS/H's coming not only to terms, but coming to love as a father these\nthree demonic creatures--a subject I found truly enthralling and worthy\nof serious contemplation--does he throw it all away so quickly? He\nstarted way back with Quetzal, an interesting, complicated character.\nThe end of RttW seems to make trivial a huge investment of effort in a\nreally chewy subject." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I still disagree. I think Jahlee's death is moving, and though it \nputs the narrator in a bad light, I think it communicates well to the \nreader. Jahlee dies AS A HUMAN, as a PERSON. Her death is, so to speak, her \nlast step into true humanity. I know it did not have effect on you, so \nmaybe Wolfe could have done a better job here; but I think most readers \nwill feel as I do.\n As for the narrator, well I've suggested that may this is the \nemerging Silk, who does not have the same sympathy for the inhumi that Horn \nhas learned to have -- though I'm still not sure who the narrator is \nsupposed to be at the end of the book. If anything, that's the point of \nWolfe's failure as far as I'm concerned. I did not care to \"meet Silk\" \nagain in such a way. (\"Hurray! It's Silk again!\" Gimmeabreak!) It also \nseems rather pointless, since the novel SEEMS to be about Horn's \ndevelopment, and just to wipe him out, or submerge him into Silk -- well, \nit does not work for me! And so, I guess I agree with your point.\n I'd still rather think that it's Horn at the end, still being \ntransformed by Silky influences, and that his attack on Jahlee was a lapse \nback into his \"old nature.\" But I've been persuaded that I'm probably \nwrong, and that all the rest of you are right -- though I don't like it.\n\nThe Rat\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2001-04-18T14:19:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n105", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alga wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So I object to your thesis of Wolfe's using epic as an excuse. Epic is\nmore complicated than that. And I hardly think the Middle Eastern view\nof women served up by the Bible--multiple wives and concubines, Mary and\nMartha etc.--is more progressive. Let's not forget that Mary's\nimpregnation was exactly the same as that of Zeus's numerous\nladyfriends. She didn't exactly ask for it, did she?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Okay, I know your point of view. (I have your book on hell, after \nall.) My point was the influence of the Bible on our culture, and during \nthose centuries it was believed that the Bible forbids polygamy and that \npeople who practise it suffer for it. Obviously nobody believed that Mary \nand Martha were \"wives\" of Jesus, and they accepted the text as teaching \nthat Mary accepted the role offered her. So, however some modern people may \nread the Bible, I was speaking of its cultural influence over the previous \n1800 years. I don't suppose this is a good topic for this list to discuss \nin detail; I assume you see my point.\n But I grant your point about Homer and the early epics, at least \nto a degree, as I stated in my other post.\n\nKing of Rats\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-19T11:11:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n105", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alga wrote:\n\nFrom Rostrum:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But what does Horn think about the rape? He says that the fault is his\nown, and he says the song is no excuse, but he does mention it, possibly\nwanting his readers to excuse him. (Of course this is Silk|Horn writing.\nIs Silk dragging an honest confession from a rapist who wants to excuse\nhimself, or is Silk finding the true cause behind Horn's attempt to blame\nhimself?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To have her bleeding to the point she cannot swim? Perhaps you are\nexcusing him too much. Until the Wooly Bug's post, I tended to do that\ntoo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If anything, the extreme brutality of what happened makes me lean more\ntoward believing that Seawrack's song produced some kind of irresistable\ncompulsion to act as Horn did.\n\nIt all depends on how it works. If the song simply increases Horn's\ndesire to do what he wants, then it reveals that his desires are pretty\nugly and Horn should be condemned for acting on them (but I'd also be\ntempted to give him credit for normally keeping such desires in\ncheck--unless you buy an extreme Bad Horn theory that has him doing lots\nof ugly stuff he never tells us about--Nettle could hardly survive such\ntreatment regularly even if she were the type to stay with so abusive a\nhusband, nor is it likely his Gaonese concubine would escape with him if\nhe were normally that brutal--but then that's Silk). But if the song\nactually compells Horn to act in a certain way, then whether he's nice or\nugly doesn't tell us anything about Horn because it's not him doing.\n\nWhat we really need to know is what sort (if any) of madness or mind\ncontrol the song causes. And given the scant evidence we have, I'm\ninclined to think that it is sufficiently mindwarping to give Horn the\nbenefit of the doubt.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }