{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1396", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1396, "subject": "The Secret: Equine Overkill", "messages": 7, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-04-23T14:44:01+00:00", "last": "2001-04-25T22:26:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Lebling", "address": "dlebling at ucentric.com" }, "date": "2001-04-23T14:44:01+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) The Secret: Equine Overkill", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another idea on the Secret.\n\nIf all of the inhumi who have human blood were taken on astral trips by\nHorn/Silk or someone with equal astral travel abilities, and _left there_ as\nboth Jahlee and Juganu wanted, they would cease to be a danger, even if they\nweren't killed where they slept.\n\nCertainly the Neighbors also had the ability to do this.\n\nStill doesn't make \"a weapon too heavy to wield.\" That's the sticking point\nfor me on all these ideas.\n\n Dave Lebling\n aka vizcacha\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-23T15:38:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) The Secret: Equine Overkill", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, David Lebling wrote:\nStill doesn't make \"a weapon too heavy to wield.\" That's the sticking point\nfor me on all these ideas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am still unable to read \"a weapon too heavy to wield\" as anything but \"a\nweapon fraught with (moral?) danger to the wielder.\" Or maybe \"a weapon\nyou can't control (that will destroy more than you wish?).\"\n\nBecause if it literally means \"a weapon humans and Neighbors don't have\nthe power to use,\" then I don't see why Horn would even think of the\nSecret as a weapon. It would just be an interesting but academic fact\nabout the inhumi.\n\nInhumi would die if you could teleport them into the corona of a star, but\nunless I think the colonists might be able to do that, I wouldn't call\nthat fact a weapon.\n\nGiven Silk|Horn's (and, I think, Wolfe's) concerns about the moral health\nof the colonies on Blue, I think the Secret is something the colonists\ncould do, but that would corrupt them morally (which is why I think it has\nsomething to do with taking advantage of the inhumi's desire to be human). \nThe Neighbors were able to do it, but declined and left the Blue/Green\nsystem entirely rather than become a race that could do such a thing to\nthe inhumi (or perhaps they started to do it--making the inhumi their\nslaves in the process--then left when they realized how bad it was).\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-04-24T09:39:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) The Secret: Equine Overkill", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 4/23/01 2:38 PM, Michael Straight at straight at email.unc.edu wrote:\nI am still unable to read \"a weapon too heavy to wield\" as anything but \"a\nweapon fraught with (moral?) danger to the wielder.\" Or maybe \"a weapon\nyou can't control (that will destroy more than you wish?).\"\n\nBecause if it literally means \"a weapon humans and Neighbors don't have\nthe power to use,\" then I don't see why Horn would even think of the\nSecret as a weapon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because although Horn doesn't think it can be used, the inhumi do. Kind of\nlike Reagan and Star Wars; in a sense it was a weapon, although most\nscientists believe that it couldn't work, because the Soviet leadership\nbelieved that it could work and altered their behavior accordingly. (If you\ndisagree with this example, substitute something else.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given Silk|Horn's (and, I think, Wolfe's) concerns about the moral health\nof the colonies on Blue, I think the Secret is something the colonists\ncould do, but that would corrupt them morally (which is why I think it has\nsomething to do with taking advantage of the inhumi's desire to be human).\nThe Neighbors were able to do it, but declined and left the Blue/Green\nsystem entirely rather than become a race that could do such a thing to\nthe inhumi (or perhaps they started to do it--making the inhumi their\nslaves in the process--then left when they realized how bad it was)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a possible reading of the passage on p. 125 of IGJ--that when Horn\nsays the colonists can't wield it, he means they shouldn't, and when he says\nthe Neighbors couldn't, he means they wouldn't--but imo an unnatural one.\nIn particular, the sentence \"If they [the Neighbors] could not wield it,\nthere is little hope that we human beings can.\" is very strained if read in\nthis sense.\n\nAlso, I don't recall any indication elsewhere that the Neighbors ever had\nmoral scruples regarding their treatment of the inhumi.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-24T11:51:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) The Secret: Equine Overkill", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Adam Stephanides wrote:\nBecause although Horn doesn't think it can be used, the inhumi do. Kind of\nlike Reagan and Star Wars; in a sense it was a weapon, although most\nscientists believe that it couldn't work, because the Soviet leadership\nbelieved that it could work and altered their behavior accordingly. (If you\ndisagree with this example, substitute something else.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you're imagining Krait dying in Horn's arms and whispering, \"The one\nthing we fear, the one weapon that would destroy us, is if humans ever\ndevelop skins so think we cannot suck their blood[1]. Then we would\nreturn to mindless beasts.\" And Horn rolling his eyes, and thinking,\n\"Well, it won't be hard to keep that 'weapon' a secret, why would I even\nbe tempted to tell anyone something so practically useless?\"\n\nI find that hard to reconcile with the way Horn frets about the secret. \nHis conversation with his Gaonese concubine sounds like he really thinks\nthere's a possibility the inhumi could be harmed by what he knows.\n\n[1] Sort of an exaggeration here, although I think it's much more likely\nthe colonists could genetically engineer thick skin for themselves than it\nis that they could all live by the Golden Rule." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a possible reading of the passage on p. 125 of IGJ--that when Horn\nsays the colonists can't wield it, he means they shouldn't, and when he says\nthe Neighbors couldn't, he means they wouldn't--but imo an unnatural one.\nIn particular, the sentence \"If they [the Neighbors] could not wield it,\nthere is little hope that we human beings can.\" is very strained if read in\nthis sense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Horn seems to respect and look up to the Neighbors. I took the sentence\nyou quote to mean that Horn had higher regard for the goodness of the\nNeighbors than for his fellow humans, and thus if the secret was too\nmorally dangerous for the Neighbors to use, then it's definitely too\ndangerous for humans.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-04-24T19:57:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) The Secret: Equine Overkill", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 4/24/01 10:51 AM, Michael Straight at straight at email.unc.edu wrote:\nHis conversation with his Gaonese concubine sounds like he really thinks\nthere's a possibility the inhumi could be harmed by what he knows." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a passage which seems to suggest this:\n\nEvensong whispered, \"You know their secret. You could destroy them.\"\n \"Yes. I couldn't kill them here and now, if that's what you mean;\nbut I know how they might be returned to the mere vermin that they once\nwere\" (OBW [hb], 372).\n\nBut the context is that Horn and Evensong are being pursued by the inhumi.\nGiven Horn's other statements on the topic, most probably Horn means only\nthat he knows the theoretical means by which the inhumi could be \"devolved,\"\nand this is why the inhumi want to kill him (regardless of whether or not he\nhimself believes this means practical)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[1] Sort of an exaggeration here, although I think it's much more likely\nthe colonists could genetically engineer thick skin for themselves than it\nis that they could all live by the Golden Rule." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And just three pages later, Horn says \"If only we cared about each other\nsufficiently. If only all of us loved all the others enough, they would go\nback to that [being unintelligent animals].\" Do you seriously maintain that\nHorn is talking about two different things in these two passages? That he\nknows two separate ways to devolve the inhumi, one morally corrupting and\nthe other requiring a too-great moral elevation?\n\nThere is another passage in IGJ which contradicts your view. When Horn is\ntalking to Hide, he tells him that Krait \"told me something in confidence\nthat they [the inhumi] believe might harm them greatly if it became widely\nknown. I would probably violate my oath if I agreed; but I doubt that it--\"\n(351) Though Wolfe lets Oreb interrupt here, Horn says explicitly that he\nwould violate his oath if he thought that publicizing the Secret would harm\nthe inhumi--not that he would violate it if publicizing the Secret would\nharm the inhumi without corrupting the colonists.\n\nIn any case, your argument that because Horn calls the Secret a weapon, he\nmust think it is usable, misreads the text. What Horn says is \"It is a\ngreat secret, truly. If you will, it is a great and terrible weapon. That\nis how the inhumi see it, and I will not call them wrong. But it is a\nweapon too heavy for our hands.\" (IGJ, 125) In other words, he's saying not\nthat the Secret is a weapon, but that _if_ it's a weapon, it's one too heavy\nto be used.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-24T22:57:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) The Secret: Equine Overkill", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Adam Stephanides wrote:\nEvensong whispered, \"You know their secret. You could destroy them.\"\n \"Yes. I couldn't kill them here and now, if that's what you mean;\nbut I know how they might be returned to the mere vermin that they once\nwere\" (OBW [hb], 372).\n\nBut the context is that Horn and Evensong are being pursued by the inhumi.\nGiven Horn's other statements on the topic, most probably Horn means only\nthat he knows the theoretical means by which the inhumi could be \"devolved,\"\nand this is why the inhumi want to kill him (regardless of whether or not he\nhimself believes this means practical)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That doesn't seem like it would merit a flat, \"Yes.\" I'd expect more of\na, \"well, in theory, if I could get everyone else to cooperate, we could\ndestroy them.\" But when she says \"You could destroy them,\" Horn answers,\nYes.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And just three pages later, Horn says \"If only we cared about each other\nsufficiently. If only all of us loved all the others enough, they would go\nback to that [being unintelligent animals].\" Do you seriously maintain that\nHorn is talking about two different things in these two passages? That he\nknows two separate ways to devolve the inhumi, one morally corrupting and\nthe other requiring a too-great moral elevation?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But two sentences later, Horn explicitly denies that this is the Secret! \nYou may answer that the Secret is the details of the inhumi lifecycle and\nhow caring for each other would prevent inhumi from having intelligent\noffspring, but if that's all there is, then Horn's broken his oath. If I\npromise not to tell anyone that flipping this switch will kill you because\nit turns off your respirator, and then tell people who want to kill you\nthat flipping the switch will kill you, I can hardly protest that I've\nkept your secret because I didn't mention the respirator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is another passage in IGJ which contradicts your view. When Horn is\ntalking to Hide, he tells him that Krait \"told me something in confidence\nthat they [the inhumi] believe might harm them greatly if it became widely\nknown. I would probably violate my oath if I agreed; but I doubt that it--\"\n(351) Though Wolfe lets Oreb interrupt here, Horn says explicitly that he\nwould violate his oath if he thought that publicizing the Secret would harm\nthe inhumi--not that he would violate it if publicizing the Secret would\nharm the inhumi without corrupting the colonists." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This, I admit, is the best prooftext for your case. I don't see how it\ncan fit into my theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In any case, your argument that because Horn calls the Secret a weapon, he\nmust think it is usable, misreads the text. What Horn says is \"It is a\ngreat secret, truly. If you will, it is a great and terrible weapon. That\nis how the inhumi see it, and I will not call them wrong. But it is a\nweapon too heavy for our hands.\" (IGJ, 125) In other words, he's saying not\nthat the Secret is a weapon, but that _if_ it's a weapon, it's one too heavy\nto be used." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When I read this passage, particularly the words \"great and terrible\nweapon,\" I think \"atom bomb\" or \"Sauron's ring.\" A terrible weapon is one\nwith the potential to do much more harm than I intend, or that tempts me\nnot to care about the harm that I do, not a weapon that I probably can't\nuse at all.\n\nThe colonists learning to love and care for each other would be an\namazing, wonderful thing; it would so transform society that any effect it\nwould have on the inhumi problem would seem like a minor side-effect. I\ncan't fathom Horn (or Wolfe) thinking of it as a means to some other end,\nmuch less as a weapon. It's like trying to develop automobiles because\nhorseshoes are so expensive (even that analogy is far too weak).\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-04-25T22:26:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) The Secret: Equine Overkill", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 4/24/01 9:57 PM, Michael Straight at straight at email.unc.edu wrote:\nOn Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Adam Stephanides wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Evensong whispered, \"You know their secret. You could destroy them.\"\n\"Yes. I couldn't kill them here and now, if that's what you mean;\nbut I know how they might be returned to the mere vermin that they once\nwere\" (OBW [hb], 372).\n\nBut the context is that Horn and Evensong are being pursued by the inhumi.\nGiven Horn's other statements on the topic, most probably Horn means only\nthat he knows the theoretical means by which the inhumi could be \"devolved,\"\nand this is why the inhumi want to kill him (regardless of whether or not he\nhimself believes this means practical)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That doesn't seem like it would merit a flat, \"Yes.\" I'd expect more of\na, \"well, in theory, if I could get everyone else to cooperate, we could\ndestroy them.\" But when she says \"You could destroy them,\" Horn answers,\nYes.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that under the circumstances, with Horn believing himself under\nimminent threat of death, he might not be so precise. But I'll grant that\nthis is the passage which is the most problematic for my reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And just three pages later, Horn says \"If only we cared about each other\nsufficiently. If only all of us loved all the others enough, they would go\nback to that [being unintelligent animals].\" Do you seriously maintain that\nHorn is talking about two different things in these two passages? That he\nknows two separate ways to devolve the inhumi, one morally corrupting and\nthe other requiring a too-great moral elevation?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But two sentences later, Horn explicitly denies that this is the Secret!\nYou may answer that the Secret is the details of the inhumi lifecycle and\nhow caring for each other would prevent inhumi from having intelligent\noffspring" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but if that's all there is, then Horn's broken his oath. If I\npromise not to tell anyone that flipping this switch will kill you because\nit turns off your respirator, and then tell people who want to kill you\nthat flipping the switch will kill you, I can hardly protest that I've\nkept your secret because I didn't mention the respirator." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Horn has a legalistic attitude towards his oath: he hints broadly at the\nSecret, both in his conversation with Hide and in his manuscript. And the\nrespirator analogy doesn't apply: Horn doesn't believe the secret can be\nused by the colonists, and in any case Horn saying \"if you love each other\nenough you will destroy the inhumi, but I can't tell you why\" would be\nunlikely to persuade anybody to change their behavior." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The colonists learning to love and care for each other would be an\namazing, wonderful thing; it would so transform society that any effect it\nwould have on the inhumi problem would seem like a minor side-effect. I\ncan't fathom Horn (or Wolfe) thinking of it as a means to some other end,\nmuch less as a weapon. It's like trying to develop automobiles because\nhorseshoes are so expensive (even that analogy is far too weak)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To repeat my earlier statement, it is the inhumi, not Horn, who think of the\nSecret as a weapon; Horn just passes along their view. Horn never tries to\ntell people \"love one another so that you can destroy the inhumi.\" In his\nconversation with Evensong, it is Evensong who brings up the Secret and its\nuse against the inhumi; elsewhere, when he talks about applying the Secret\nagainst the inhumi, it's always in the context of explaining how he can\ncontrol the inhumi through fear of the Secret, or why the inhumi want to\nkill him.\n\nAnd, going back to my earlier post on the Secret, \"loving each other\" and\n\"solving the inhumi problem\" aren't opposed to each other as concepts.\nEssentially, the inhumi are the dark side of humanity; so eliminating this\ndark side and eliminating the inhumi threat are symbolically the same thing.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }