{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1399", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1399, "subject": "Pig's eye and astral needles", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-04-23T22:11:08+00:00", "last": "2001-04-24T08:46:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Yves Meynard", "address": "ymeynard at globetrotter.qc.ca" }, "date": "2001-04-23T23:00:56+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Pig's eye and astral needles", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose you have to place me amongst those who were somewhat disappointed\nby the Short Sun books, though I am still willing to be convinced\notherwise.\n\nGiven Wolfe's skill and deviousness, I am quite ready to believe that most\nof what appears to be mistakes or negligence is in fact intended and\npregnant with meaning. But SS seems to me to have crossed a line, in that a\nsuperficial reading of the books does not work. This is unlike NS, where\none does not have to understand every detail to nevertheless \"get it\" -- or\nat least to come up with a satisfying understanding of the work. The same\ncan be said of LS, which was intelligible at first reading, and which I\nenjoyed more upon rereading it.\n\nBut reading the latest archive of these posts all at once (as an aside,\nRanjit, would it be possible to break them up into smaller pieces? That >\n1MB monster kept bringing my browser to its knees) made it painfully clear\nthat the true story of the SS books is probably quite different from its\nsurface. I don't mind the blurring of the Narrator's identity. One does not\nhave to realize it's really Silk denying his own identity to understand\nthat there is a merging of the two; a full understanding \"simply\" deepens\nthe poignancy of the situation. I didn't mind not realizing Pig's nature\nuntil having it spelled out here; Wolfe did plant clear clues, so it's\ncool.\n\nWhat is disturbing to me is that there is so much divine possession\nimplicit in the story that one cannot reliably know who is who. Some of the\ntheories put forth here seem way over the top, but it's hard to refute them\nconclusively. Given also the Narrator's refusal to deal with the crucial\nevents of Horn's life, the unreliability of the narration reaches such a\npitch that I sometimes feel the contract with the reader has been broken.\n\nSetting aside the generalized spleen, I have two specific questions I hope\nsomeone can answer. First, why is the Narrator so far away from Pig (a\nleague and a half, p.334) when his eye is transplanted? How long before was\nit taken out? Enough time to allow the Narrator to heal and get back on his\nfeet -- but that could be hours as well as days. Why weren't they together\non adjacent operating tables?\n\nSecond question: on p.190, when the Narrator finds himself on Green and\nfights off a horde of inhumi, he shapes a needler out of thin air and\nshoots them down. This initially made me cringe, but then the inhumi are\ndescribed as reacting in different ways. Some \"tumble out of the air and\n[fall] to their deaths\". Others are in fact completely immune to the\n\"astral\" needles and the Narrator has to club them.\n\nThis clearly implies that the needles are not tangible: that the inhumi's\nbelief that they have been wounded is what kills them. Since the Narrator\ncan pass through walls as well, I would be tempted to assume that he is not\ntangible at all himself. But he does interact with his physical\nsurroundings at other times -- or does he? Can someone provide an\nunambiguous quote to dispel the doubt? Because if we have no clear evidence\nof interaction with physical objects other than people, then we might\ntheorize that it is the observer's belief in the physicality of astral\nprojections that gives them \"substance\" to the extent that the _observer_\ncan be affected. This would certainly make the astral travel episodes feel\nless contrived/arbitrary. William Ansley's observation that the destination\nmight not be a real place after all is provocative, but I'm not sure we can\nhope for that. The Neighbors bilocate: this is presumably how they can\nstill be on Blue or Green and at the same time have left the planets\nbehind. Those whom Horn encounters in OBW must therefore have been astrally\npresent in the real world.\n\nYves Meynard\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Ingram", "address": "jingram at usc.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-23T22:11:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Pig's eye and astral needles", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yves raises some interesting issues:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is disturbing to me is that there is so much divine possession\nimplicit in the story that one cannot reliably know who is who." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This questioning of identity was one of the more powerful aspects of \nthe series, in my mind. I suppose that each reader negotiates her \nown contract, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This clearly implies that the needles are not tangible: that the inhumi's\nbelief that they have been wounded is what kills them. Since the Narrator\ncan pass through walls as well, I would be tempted to assume that he is not\ntangible at all himself. But he does interact with his physical\nsurroundings at other times -- or does he? Can someone provide an\nunambiguous quote to dispel the doubt? Because if we have no clear evidence\nof interaction with physical objects other than people, then we might\ntheorize that it is the observer's belief in the physicality of astral\nprojections that gives them \"substance\" to the extent that the _observer_\ncan be affected." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a tempting line of analysis; the argument I would be tempted \nto make is that bilocation only affects those who \"go under,\" and \nthat those visited are merely epiphenomenal. However, Severian seems \nto contradict this theory: the narrator and others appear to a real \n(?) character, so bilocation does not seem limited to shared visions \nwith psychosomatic effects on those participating. Also, Horn's \ntranslation into Silk seems quite similar to bilocation.\n\nThe question of tangibility is distinct. I'm not sure how to delimit \n\"physical\" in this case. The ability of the inhumi to pass as human \nis in part related to a sort of psychic camouflage; the Neighbors \nhave passed on some powers to Horn which followed his psyche to Silk; \nso it may be worth playing with the unique powers afforded by that \ninteraction--as others have done.\n\nRelated issues:\n\nregarding plausibility: if Mucor's powers were acceptable to readers, \nI'm not sure why this variant (bilocation with groups, but without \npossession) should seem substantially less reasonable.\n\nregarding The Secret: it seems clear that blood passes on \nintelligence to offspring. This makes me curious about Patera \nQuetzal . . . did one of his parents encounter humans prior to the \nWhorl's visit? (otherwise, how could the first have made it to the \nLoganstone in order to return to raise a brood?) Did Quetzal have \nother-than-human intelligence? Am I missing something?\n\n\nJason\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-04-24T08:46:15+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Pig's eye and astral needles", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quoth Jason Ingram:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The question of tangibility is distinct. I'm not sure how to \ndelimit \"physical\" in this case. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Key point. I've said before & I'll say again: it is not science\nfantasy; it is science fiction that makes some relatively unusual \n(for SF) assumptions about the nature of Universe. In particular,\nhere, Mr Wolfe assumes (if only for the purpose of the novel) that \n\"spirit\" is quite real and is (or can be) in some sense \"tangible.\"\n\n(As a possible point of comparision, note the treatment of \"souls\"\nin the tv series Babylon-5, which I don't recall anyone ever trying \nto call \"science fantasy.\" Souls, in B5, prove to be (1) demonstrably\nreal, (2) sentient apart from bodies and (3) apparently-immortal.)\n\nNow, \"spirit\" is (as noted before) related to \"breath\" which is,\nanciently, synonymous with \"life.\" When you stop breathing, you're\ndead -- a pretty simple and obvious equation for a pre-EEG society.\nBut \"the blood is the life,\" and if \"life=breath=spirit,\" then to\nsteal the blood is to steal the spirit. Thus, the inhumi, stealing\nthe blood of humans, steal their spirit also; and hence, quite \naside from any weird theories of inheritance, their acquisition of\nintelligence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The ability of the inhumi to pass as human is in part related to a\nsort of psychic camouflage; " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's clearly true at least on one level (Krait's statement that \nhumans see what they expect seems, to me at least, disingenuous).\nAlso I would guess that there is a certain amount of \"they look \nhuman because they have human spirit.\" We also know (from Fava) \nthat the personality and physiognomy of an inhum[u|a] is at least \npartially conditioned by who-or-what s/he has most recently dined \non, whether this be \"psychic\" or what." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "regarding The Secret: it seems clear that blood passes on \nintelligence to offspring. This makes me curious about Patera \nQuetzal . . . did one of his parents encounter humans prior to\nthe Whorl's visit? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not necessarily -- we aren't very clear on how long ago (the \nlast) Neighbors left, but there are some implications that it \nwasn't _that_ long ago; and we know that the Neighbors visited\nthe _Whorl_ and brought inhumi with them. Suppose, then, that\nQuetzal originally has intelligence, not from humans, but from\nNeighbors. Then Quetzal, arriving with the Neighborly \"expedition,\" \nmeets & drinks of at least one human, and so gains some amount of \nhuman personality & appearance.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }