{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1403", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1403, "subject": "Crocagators", "messages": 12, "voices": 7, "first": "2001-04-25T12:58:00+00:00", "last": "2001-05-01T19:47:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-04-25T12:58:00+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Crocagators", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Kitchen Staff Wombat wrote:\nMy understanding is that the number of human attacks from\ncrocodilians is very low. They're much like wolves that \nway--feared as human predators all out of proportion to the\nactual danger they present. Which isn't to say that they\ncan't sometimes be very dangerous, indeed. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which was pretty much my point. Assuming per argumentam the\n\"Golden Rule\" theory of the Secret, _and_ that the human\ncolonists somehow manage to implement it, then the inhumi \nbecome \"something we can live with,\" either as benevolent \nsentients or as dangerous but mindless giant leeches.\n\nIn fact, there's some doubt in my mind as to how many \npeople are actually killed by the inhumi in the situation \nwhich actually holds on Blue at the time of Horn's journey\n-- I don't recall many examples of someone actually dying \nfrom inhumi attacks [excepting the attack on the wedding,\nas a very special special case]. Do the inhumi, like wolves, \nbears, sharks, snakes, crocodilians... suffer from \nexaggerated human fears as to the extent of the danger they\npose?\n\nI somewhat doubt it, on the grounds that the inhumi (at\nleast in the form we know) are far smarter than wolves,\nbears, etc., and able to \"pass\" as humans: a combination \nthat makes one inhumu potentially far more dangerous in \nthe long term than a good-sized pack of wolves. But the\nBluvian scenes in SHORT simply don't seem to reflect a\npeople in imminent danger of being wiped out by predators.\n\nI dunno. There's _something_ weird missing here, what it \nis ain't exactly clear...\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mark millman", "address": "millman at us.ncipher.com" }, "date": "2001-04-25T17:30:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Crocagators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:58 PM 25-04-01 -0700, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThe Kitchen Staff Wombat wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My understanding is that the \nnumber of human attacks from\ncrocodilians is very low. They're \nmuch like wolves that way--\nfeared as human predators all \nout of proportion to the actual \ndanger they present. Which isn't \nto say that they can't sometimes \nbe very dangerous, indeed. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which was pretty much my point. Assuming per argu-\nmentam the \"Golden Rule\" theory of the Secret, _and_ \nthat the human colonists somehow manage to imple-\nment it, then the inhumi become \"something we can live \nwith,\" either as benevolent sentients or as dangerous but \nmindless giant leeches.\n\nIn fact, there's some doubt in my mind as to how many \npeople are actually killed by the inhumi in the situation \nwhich actually holds on Blue at the time of Horn's jour-\nney -- I don't recall many examples of someone actually \ndying from inhumi attacks [excepting the attack on the \nwedding, as a very special special case]. Do the inhumi, \nlike wolves, bears, sharks, snakes, crocodilians... suffer \nfrom exaggerated human fears as to the extent of the \ndanger they pose?\n\nI somewhat doubt it, on the grounds that the inhumi (at\nleast in the form we know) are far smarter than wolves, \nbears, etc., and able to \"pass\" as humans: a combination \nthat makes one inhumu potentially far more dangerous in \nthe long term than a good-sized pack of wolves. But the\nBluvian scenes in SHORT simply don't seem to reflect a\npeople in imminent danger of being wiped out by \npredators.\n\nI dunno. There's _something_ weird missing here, what \nit is ain't exactly clear...\n\n--Blattid" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the risk of being obvious, allow me to point out that, unlike the \ninhumi, wolves, bears, sharks, snakes, crocodilians, and the like do \nnot preferentially target humans as their prey. \n\nAlso, as I recall (and I'm afraid that I don't have the book here for \nreference, so we'll have to depend on my recollection), Fava had to \nbe very careful not to kill Salica when she fed from the old woman. \nIf Fava hadn't been living with the family at the time, she very likely \nwould have been less careful. (If anyone is likely to die from the \ninhumi's depredations, it would be the old, the very young, and the \nsick; curiously, though, even the baby Sinew was not killed when he \nwas attacked. I wonder whether this may be a clue; thank you for \nbringing it up, Dan'l.) I do have to agree with Dan'l, though; the \ninhumi aren't going to kill off Blue's human population any time \nsoon.\n\nNacre\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2001-04-25T22:31:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Crocagators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 5:30 PM -0400 4/25/01, mark millman wrote:\nAt the risk of being obvious, allow me to point out that, unlike the\ninhumi, wolves, bears, sharks, snakes, crocodilians, and the like do\nnot preferentially target humans as their prey." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that \"dumb\" inhumi would preferentially target humans \nas their host. As I read the text, it was just an accident that the \ninhumi first fed upon the Neighbors and became sentient." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:03 AM -0700 4/25/01, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n(As a side note, how many people are _actually_ attacked by alligators\nand the like in a given year? I presume that proper precautions could\nmake the threat from non-sentient inhumi no greater than that from\ncrocodilians.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:58 PM -0700 4/25/01, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhich was pretty much my point. Assuming per argumentam the\n\"Golden Rule\" theory of the Secret, _and_ that the human\ncolonists somehow manage to implement it, then the inhumi\nbecome \"something we can live with,\" either as benevolent\nsentients or as dangerous but mindless giant leeches." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think \"mindless giant leeches\" *that can fly* would be a much \ngreater threat that crocodiles. It is easy to stay away from \ncrocodiles, you just don't go near the river/lake they live in. \n(Unless, of course, it is your only source of drinking water.)\n\nInhumi, on the other hand, can fly so you can't avoid them. I would \nthink, although I can't recall a specific example of this, that they \ncould also squeeze through very small openings, since they have no \nbones.\n\nCertainly, dumb inhumi would be orders of magnitude easier to defend \nagainst that smart ones, but I think it would be more difficult than \nyou suggest.\n\nWilliam Ansley\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2001-04-26T01:18:57+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Re: Crocagators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nacre has written:\n\n\n\nOr even at all, for as Jahlee tells Horn in IGJ p. 377, \"I drink blood.\nHuman blood mostly. We don't kill you though. At least very often.\"\n\nGranted, it's in Jahlee's best interests to fudge the truth a bit, but does\nanyone that we know of in either the Long or Short books actually succumb\nfatally to an inhumu's bite? I don't recollect a single person. Therefore\nthe comparison with leeches--who only kill those with hereditary or\nspontaneous idiopathic coagulopathies--is probably dead on.\n\nRobert Borski\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-04-26T09:58:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Re: Crocagators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 4/26/01 1:18 AM, Robert Borski at rborski at charter.net wrote:\nNacre has written:\n\n\n\nOr even at all, for as Jahlee tells Horn in IGJ p. 377, \"I drink blood.\nHuman blood mostly. We don't kill you though. At least very often.\"\n\nGranted, it's in Jahlee's best interests to fudge the truth a bit, but does\nanyone that we know of in either the Long or Short books actually succumb\nfatally to an inhumu's bite? I don't recollect a single person. Therefore\nthe comparison with leeches--who only kill those with hereditary or\nspontaneous idiopathic coagulopathies--is probably dead on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are the thousand of dead bodies in the sewer on Green, whom Horn says\nhave \"bled to death\" (IGJ, 380); and elsewhere, iirc, Horn says or implies\nthat the inhumi on Green drain the bodies of their slaves when they get too\nold to work or fight. And Horn, who should know, thinks that Juganu might\nkill him by drinking his fill; and that if Juganu brought companions he\n\"would certainly die\" (but this, as Horn anticipates it, would be\npremeditated murder by Juganu, not the typical opportunistic inhumi attack)\n(RttW, 403). But I agree that inhumi attacks do seem to be rarely fatal on\nBlue, perhaps because on Blue they rarely have the chance to drink their\nfill without being disturbed. And the inhumi are not going to wipe out the\nhumans of Blue: aside from anything else, in doing so they would be\neliminating their main source of human blood. A more realistic danger is\nthat the inhumi would gain control over the humans on Blue, as they have\nover the Pajarocans and most of those on Green.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-04-26T08:48:04+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Crocagators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mark Millman wrote:\nAt the risk of being obvious, allow me to point out that,\nunlike the inhumi, wolves, bears, sharks, snakes, crocodilians,\nand the like do not preferentially target humans as their prey. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the risk of being contentious, let me observe that only the\nsentient inhumi do so. But in the universe-of-discourse where \nhumans have come to \"love one another,\" the sentient inhumi will\nvery specifically _not_ target humans; and the non-sentient\ninhumi, well, won't.\n\n a) Special case: Given that the sentient inhumi have\n developed \"human souls,\" it is possible and even\n somewhat likely that at least some humans will choose\n to voluntarily give blood to sentient inhumi so that\n their children will also have \"human souls.\" This,\n of course, is not a \"danger\" situation at all; in \n fact, this may represent the ideal state of society\n on the Short Sun whorls: humans _deliberately_ giving\n blood voluntarily to _all_ inhumi, so the nextgen of\n inhumi (and thereafter) will be non-threatening,\n sentient inhumi, who will continue to take blood given\n voluntarily by humans, etc. (Consider also in this \n context Octavia Estelle Butler's horrendously effective\n story \"Bloodchild.\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, as I recall (and I'm afraid that I don't have the book\nhere for reference, so we'll have to depend on my recollection),\nFava had to be very careful not to kill Salica when she fed from\nthe old woman. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My recollection also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Fava hadn't been living with the family at the time, she very\nlikely would have been less careful. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you sure? I'm not. Again, death-by-inhumi-attack seems to be\n_exceedingly_ rare.\n\n--Dan'l\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2001-04-26T12:44:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Re: Crocagators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:58 AM 4/26/01 -0500, Adam wrote:\nBut I agree that inhumi attacks do seem to be rarely fatal on\nBlue, perhaps because on Blue they rarely have the chance to drink their\nfill without being disturbed. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Though it is worth noting that though Quetzal does not kill Teazel (I think\nthat's her name), he has fed off her more than once and she is near death\nwhen Silk treats her. Quetzal was also very smart for an inhumu." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://www.nyrsf.com\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mark millman", "address": "millman at us.ncipher.com" }, "date": "2001-04-27T11:25:25+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Crocagators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:48 AM 26-04-01 -0700, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nMark Millman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At the risk of being obvious, \nallow me to point out that,\nunlike the inhumi, wolves, \nbears, sharks, snakes, croco-\ndilians, and the like do not \npreferentially target humans \nas their prey. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the risk of being contentious, let me observe that only \nthe sentient inhumi do so. But in the universe-of-discourse \nwhere humans have come to \"love one another,\" the sen-\ntient inhumi will very specifically _not_ target humans; \nand the non-sentient inhumi, well, won't.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, as I recall (and I'm \nafraid that I don't have the \nbook here for reference, \nso we'll have to depend on \nmy recollection), Fava had \nto be very careful not to \nkill Salica when she fed from\nthe old woman. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My recollection also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Fava hadn't been living \nwith the family at the time, \nshe very likely would have \nbeen less careful. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you sure? I'm not. Again, death-by-inhumi-attack \nseems to be _exceedingly_ rare.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Contention welcomed, Dan'l. It's true that only the sentient inhumi \nspecifically target humans; but then it's equally true that these are ex-\nactly the inhumi that the human population of Blue fears; and I'd \nbe surprised if there were many non-sentient inhumi loose on Blue. \nThe sentient inhumi are as much a source of fear as the (much less \ncommon) man-eating shark or tiger or wolf-pack is on Earth, and \nare the ones that humans would have to bring themselves to accept \nin an agape-driven world (though the entire humanization-of-the-\ninhumi-by-voluntary-blood-donation scenario is now discredited).\n\nYou are right to say that we hardly hear of any deaths from the \ninhumi's depredations in Short Sun (and of course this has now \nbeen discussed at greater length on the list), but there are examples \nin which victims have been left in a very bad way indeed. Kevin \nMaroney mentions Teazel in Long Sun, and I recall that General \nOosik's son (is his name Muktuk?--again, I don't have the book for \nreference) is drained so badly that he loses consciousness, leaving \nhim so weak that he cannot stand. These attacks may not be char-\nacteristic of the situation on Blue, but do demonstrate that inhumi \ncan probably kill if they're so minded (or if they misjudge, etc.). \nBlue is also a colony world, and there seem to be enough dangers \naside from the inhumi that one probably wouldn't want to go \naround in a condition of chronic weakness from blood loss.\n\nMark\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mark millman", "address": "millman at us.ncipher.com" }, "date": "2001-04-27T11:25:25+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Crocagators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:48 AM 26-04-01 -0700, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nMark Millman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At the risk of being obvious, \nallow me to point out that,\nunlike the inhumi, wolves, \nbears, sharks, snakes, croco-\ndilians, and the like do not \npreferentially target humans \nas their prey. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the risk of being contentious, let me observe that only \nthe sentient inhumi do so. But in the universe-of-discourse \nwhere humans have come to \"love one another,\" the sen-\ntient inhumi will very specifically _not_ target humans; \nand the non-sentient inhumi, well, won't.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, as I recall (and I'm \nafraid that I don't have the \nbook here for reference, \nso we'll have to depend on \nmy recollection), Fava had \nto be very careful not to \nkill Salica when she fed from\nthe old woman. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My recollection also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Fava hadn't been living \nwith the family at the time, \nshe very likely would have \nbeen less careful. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you sure? I'm not. Again, death-by-inhumi-attack \nseems to be _exceedingly_ rare.\n\n--Dan'l" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Contention welcomed, Dan'l. It's true that only the sentient inhumi \nspecifically target humans; but then it's equally true that these are ex-\nactly the inhumi that the human population of Blue fears; and I'd \nbe surprised if there were many non-sentient inhumi loose on Blue. \nThe sentient inhumi are as much a source of fear as the (much less \ncommon) man-eating shark or tiger or wolf-pack is on Earth, and \nare the ones that humans would have to bring themselves to accept \nin an agape-driven world (though the entire humanization-of-the-\ninhumi-by-voluntary-blood-donation scenario is now discredited).\n\nYou are right to say that we hardly hear of any deaths from the \ninhumi's depredations in Short Sun (and of course this has now \nbeen discussed at greater length on the list), but there are examples \nin which victims have been left in a very bad way indeed. Kevin \nMaroney mentions Teazel in Long Sun, and I recall that General \nOosik's son (is his name Muktuk?--again, I don't have the book for \nreference) is drained so badly that he loses consciousness, leaving \nhim so weak that he cannot stand. These attacks may not be char-\nacteristic of the situation on Blue, but do demonstrate that inhumi \ncan probably kill if they're so minded (or if they misjudge, etc.). \nBlue is also a colony world, and there seem to be enough dangers \naside from the inhumi that one probably wouldn't want to go \naround in a condition of chronic weakness from blood loss.\n\nMark\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Ingram", "address": "jingram at usc.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-27T22:34:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Re: Crocagators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Kevin Maroney wrote:\nThough it is worth noting that though Quetzal does not kill Teazel (I think\nthat's her name), he has fed off her more than once and she is near death\nwhen Silk treats her. Quetzal was also very smart for an inhumu." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quetzal may have been the descendant of inhumi who drank from \nNeighbors, thus possessing other-than-human intelligence (at least, \nas Dan'l Danehy-Oakes argues, prior to consuming human blood). That \nstill leaves the question of how Quetzal got to the Loganstone.\n\nQuetzal might have been the offspring of the hypothesized inhumi who \nwere taken with the Neighbors. He might have been born on Green, \nhowever. If several generations of inhumi had passed since the \nNeighbors left, this implies that the trait of augmented intelligence \nlasts--which has implications for the nature of the weapon too heavy \nto bear. Of course, inhumi might simply live a very long time.\n\nThere are other possibilities, of course. But it seems likely that \nInhumi can travel through space (beyond the mesosphere, or the \n'Green' equivalent), _or_ had access to craft that could allow space \ntravel, _or_ had friends who dropped one or two off, _or_ I've \nforgotten something from the Long Sun series.\n\nJason\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-04-30T08:46:33+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Re: Re: Crocagators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jason wrote:\nQuetzal might have been the offspring of the hypothesized\ninhumi who were taken with the Neighbors. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They're not \"hypothesized,\" dammit. The Neighbors _say_ so,\nin RETURN. (Don't ask me for a page cite, though; my copies \nof SHORT are out on loan and won't be back for a while.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He might have been born on Green, however. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The word seems to be \"must.\" It appears that the inhumi can\nonly breed on Green." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If several generations of inhumi had passed since the Neighbors\nleft, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are implications that it has been only a short time -- \nI believe I first got that impression on the island with the\nnot-very-ruined Neighbor-place in BLUE.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Ingram", "address": "jingram at usc.edu" }, "date": "2001-05-01T19:47:49+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Re: Crocagators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n[re: inhumi taken along with the Nieghbors]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " They're not \"hypothesized,\" dammit. The Neighbors _say_ so,\n in RETURN. (Don't ask me for a page cite, though; my copies\n of SHORT are out on loan and won't be back for a while.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fine; assume the Neighbors never lie and that the narrator is 100%\ntrustworthy. That's a reasonable hypothesis, but nevertheless an\nassumption.\n\nThe important aspect of that assumption (or \"fact,\" whatever) lies in the\neffects of the interaction of abilities that enables astral travel, or\nbilocation. Maybe the Neighbors can do some things by themselves, others\nonly with the inhumi. Maybe thinking about the relation between Horn's\nability to bilocate in terms of his movement _into_ Silk, as it were, and\nthe presence of inhumi might shed some light on the pesky question of\nastral travel.\n\nI'm also curious about Quetzal's lineage, but that seems to be a minor\nthread." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " > He [Quetzal] might have been born on Green, however.\n\n The word seems to be \"must.\" It appears that the inhumi can\n only breed on Green." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We don't really know much about the abilities of the Neighbors. They\nmight be able to replicate inhumi breeding conditions. They might\nnot. Our access to the \"truth\" of these matters is so buffered that\nguarded terms are more appropriate. If \"seems to be\" and\n\"appear\" work better, use those words instead of \"might.\"\n\nAgain, the question here is-- if Quetzal was born on Green, by what means\ndid he make his way to the Loganstone. If by ship, whose, and to what end\ndid they assist him? If by other means, which? (inhumi flying through\nspace, randomly seeking out hosts? inhumi flying through space pursuing\nobjects perceived with their incredibly superior perception?) The answer\nmight prove interesting; I'm not sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " > If several generations of inhumi had passed since the Neighbors\n > left,\n\n There are implications that it has been only a short time --\n I believe I first got that impression on the island with the\n not-very-ruined Neighbor-place in BLUE." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. However, a short time could mean centuries, or decades, depending\non the technology involved and the degree of ruin. Since we don't know\n(or, more precisely, since I can't recall any statements on this\nmatter) the inhumi lifespan, this could involve generations. Still\nspeculation, but pertinent for determining whether intelligence passes\nto grandchildren.\n\nJason\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }