Subject: (whorl) Crocagators

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:58:00 +0000

The Kitchen Staff Wombat wrote:

> My understanding is that the number of human attacks from
> crocodilians is very low. They're much like wolves that 
> way--feared as human predators all out of proportion to the
> actual danger they present. Which isn't to say that they
> can't sometimes be very dangerous, indeed. 

Which was pretty much my point. Assuming per argumentam the
"Golden Rule" theory of the Secret, _and_ that the human
colonists somehow manage to implement it, then the inhumi 
become "something we can live with," either as benevolent 
sentients or as dangerous but mindless giant leeches.

In fact, there's some doubt in my mind as to how many 
people are actually killed by the inhumi in the situation 
which actually holds on Blue at the time of Horn's journey
-- I don't recall many examples of someone actually dying 
from inhumi attacks [excepting the attack on the wedding,
as a very special special case]. Do the inhumi, like wolves, 
bears, sharks, snakes, crocodilians... suffer from 
exaggerated human fears as to the extent of the danger they
pose?

I somewhat doubt it, on the grounds that the inhumi (at
least in the form we know) are far smarter than wolves,
bears, etc., and able to "pass" as humans: a combination 
that makes one inhumu potentially far more dangerous in 
the long term than a good-sized pack of wolves. But the
Bluvian scenes in SHORT simply don't seem to reflect a
people in imminent danger of being wiped out by predators.

I dunno. There's _something_ weird missing here, what it 
is ain't exactly clear...

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---

From: mark millman <millman at us.ncipher.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:30:19 +0000

At 12:58 PM 25-04-01 -0700, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:

>> crocodilians is very low. They're 
>> much like wolves that way--
>> feared as human predators all 
>> out of proportion to the actual 
>> danger they present. Which isn't 
>> to say that they can't sometimes 
>> be very dangerous, indeed. 
>
> Which was pretty much my point. Assuming per argu-
> mentam the "Golden Rule" theory of the Secret, _and_ 
> that the human colonists somehow manage to imple-
> ment it, then the inhumi become "something we can live 
> with," either as benevolent sentients or as dangerous but 
> mindless giant leeches.
>
> which actually holds on Blue at the time of Horn's jour-
> ney -- I don't recall many examples of someone actually 
> dying from inhumi attacks [excepting the attack on the 
> wedding, as a very special special case]. Do the inhumi, 
> like wolves, bears, sharks, snakes, crocodilians... suffer 
> from exaggerated human fears as to the extent of the 
> danger they pose?
>
> I dunno. There's _something_ weird missing here, what 
> it is ain't exactly clear...
>
> --Blattid

At the risk of being obvious, allow me to point out that, unlike the 
inhumi, wolves, bears, sharks, snakes, crocodilians, and the like do 
not preferentially target humans as their prey.  

Also, as I recall (and I'm afraid that I don't have the book here for 
reference, so we'll have to depend on my recollection), Fava had to 
be very careful not to kill Salica when she fed from the old woman.  
If Fava hadn't been living with the family at the time, she very likely 
would have been less careful.  (If anyone is likely to die from the 
inhumi's depredations, it would be the old, the very young, and the 
sick; curiously, though, even the baby Sinew was not killed when he 
was attacked.  I wonder whether this may be a clue; thank you for 
bringing it up, Dan'l.)  I do have to agree with Dan'l, though; the 
inhumi aren't going to kill off Blue's human population any time 
soon.

Nacre

---

From: William Ansley <wansley at warwick.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:31:37 +0000

>not preferentially target humans as their prey.

I don't think that "dumb" inhumi would preferentially target humans 
as their host. As I read the text, it was just an accident that the 
inhumi first fed upon the Neighbors and became sentient.

At 11:03 AM -0700 4/25/01, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
>(As a side note, how many people are _actually_ attacked by alligators
>and the like in a given year? I presume that proper precautions could
>make the threat from non-sentient inhumi no greater than that from
>crocodilians.)

>sentients or as dangerous but mindless giant leeches.

I think "mindless giant leeches" *that can fly* would be a much 
greater threat that crocodiles. It is easy to stay away from 
crocodiles, you just don't go near the river/lake they live in. 
(Unless, of course, it is your only source of drinking water.)

Inhumi, on the other hand, can fly so you can't avoid them. I would 
think, although I can't recall a specific example of this, that they 
could also squeeze through very small openings, since they have no 
bones.

Certainly, dumb inhumi would be orders of magnitude easier to defend 
against that smart ones, but I think it would be more difficult than 
you suggest.

William Ansley

---

From: Robert Borski <rborski at charter.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 01:18:57 +0000

Nacre has written:

<Also, as I recall (and I'm afraid that I don't have the book here for
soon.>

Or even at all, for as Jahlee tells Horn in IGJ p. 377, "I drink blood.
Human blood mostly. We don't kill you though. At least very often."

Granted, it's in Jahlee's best interests to fudge the truth a bit, but does
anyone that we know of in either the Long or Short books actually succumb
fatally to an inhumu's bite? I don't recollect a single person. Therefore
the comparison with leeches--who only kill those with hereditary or
spontaneous idiopathic coagulopathies--is probably dead on.

Robert Borski

---

From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 09:58:26 +0000

on 4/26/01 1:18 AM, Robert Borski at rborski at charter.net wrote:

> Nacre has written:
> 
> <I do have to agree with Dan'l, though; the

There are the thousand of dead bodies in the sewer on Green, whom Horn says
have "bled to death" (IGJ, 380); and elsewhere, iirc, Horn says or implies
that the inhumi on Green drain the bodies of their slaves when they get too
old to work or fight.  And Horn, who should know, thinks that Juganu might
kill him by drinking his fill; and that if Juganu brought companions he
"would certainly die" (but this, as Horn anticipates it, would be
premeditated murder by Juganu, not the typical opportunistic inhumi attack)
(RttW, 403).  But I agree that inhumi attacks do seem to be rarely fatal on
Blue, perhaps because on Blue they rarely have the chance to drink their
fill without being disturbed.  And the inhumi are not going to wipe out the
humans of Blue: aside from anything else, in doing so they would be
eliminating their main source of human blood.  A more realistic danger is
that the inhumi would gain control over the humans on Blue, as they have
over the Pajarocans and most of those on Green.

--Adam

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 08:48:04 +0000

Mark Millman wrote:

> At the risk of being obvious, allow me to point out that,
> unlike the inhumi, wolves, bears, sharks, snakes, crocodilians,
> and the like do not preferentially target humans as their prey.  

At the risk of being contentious, let me observe that only the
sentient inhumi do so. But in the universe-of-discourse where 
humans have come to "love one another," the sentient inhumi will
very specifically _not_ target humans; and the non-sentient
inhumi, well, won't.

    a) Special case: Given that the sentient inhumi have
       developed "human souls," it is possible and even
       somewhat likely that at least some humans will choose
       to voluntarily give blood to sentient inhumi so that
       their children will also have "human souls." This,
       of course, is not a "danger" situation at all; in 
       fact, this may represent the ideal state of society
       on the Short Sun whorls: humans _deliberately_ giving
       blood voluntarily to _all_ inhumi, so the nextgen of
       inhumi (and thereafter) will be non-threatening,
       sentient inhumi, who will continue to take blood given
       voluntarily by humans, etc. (Consider also in this 
       context Octavia Estelle Butler's horrendously effective
       story "Bloodchild.")

> Also, as I recall (and I'm afraid that I don't have the book
> here for reference, so we'll have to depend on my recollection),
> Fava had to be very careful not to kill Salica when she fed from
> the old woman.  

My recollection also.

> If Fava hadn't been living with the family at the time, she very
> likely would have been less careful.  

Are you sure? I'm not. Again, death-by-inhumi-attack seems to be
_exceedingly_ rare.

--Dan'l

---

From: Kevin J. Maroney <kmaroney at ungames.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 12:44:26 +0000

At 09:58 AM 4/26/01 -0500, Adam wrote:
>But I agree that inhumi attacks do seem to be rarely fatal on
>fill without being disturbed.  

Though it is worth noting that though Quetzal does not kill Teazel (I think
that's her name), he has fed off her more than once and she is near death
when Silk treats her. Quetzal was also very smart for an inhumu.

-- 
Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction
http://www.nyrsf.com

---

From: mark millman <millman at us.ncipher.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:25:25 +0000

At 08:48 AM 26-04-01 -0700, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:

>> unlike the inhumi, wolves, 
>> bears, sharks, snakes, croco-
>> dilians, and the like do not 
>> preferentially target humans 
>> as their prey.  
>
> At the risk of being contentious, let me observe that only 
> the sentient inhumi do so. But in the universe-of-discourse 
> where humans have come to "love one another," the sen-
> tient inhumi will very specifically _not_ target humans; 
> and the non-sentient inhumi, well, won't.
>
> [snip]
>
>> Also, as I recall (and I'm 
>> afraid that I don't have the 
>> book here for reference, 
>> so we'll have to depend on 
>> my recollection), Fava had 
>> to be very careful not to 
>> kill Salica when she fed from
>> the old woman.  
>
> My recollection also.
>
>> If Fava hadn't been living 
>> with the family at the time, 
>> she very likely would have 
>> been less careful.  
>
> Are you sure? I'm not. Again, death-by-inhumi-attack 
> seems to be _exceedingly_ rare.
>
> --Dan'l

Contention welcomed, Dan'l.  It's true that only the sentient inhumi 
specifically target humans; but then it's equally true that these are ex-
actly the inhumi that the human population of Blue fears; and I'd 
be surprised if there were many non-sentient inhumi loose on Blue.  
The sentient inhumi are as much a source of fear as the (much less 
common) man-eating shark or tiger or wolf-pack is on Earth, and 
are the ones that humans would have to bring themselves to accept 
in an agape-driven world (though the entire humanization-of-the-
inhumi-by-voluntary-blood-donation scenario is now discredited).

You are right to say that we hardly hear of any deaths from the 
inhumi's depredations in Short Sun (and of course this has now 
been discussed at greater length on the list), but there are examples 
in which victims have been left in a very bad way indeed.  Kevin 
Maroney mentions Teazel in Long Sun, and I recall that General 
Oosik's son (is his name Muktuk?--again, I don't have the book for 
reference) is drained so badly that he loses consciousness, leaving 
him so weak that he cannot stand.  These attacks may not be char-
acteristic of the situation on Blue, but do demonstrate that inhumi 
can probably kill if they're so minded (or if they misjudge, etc.).  
Blue is also a colony world, and there seem to be enough dangers 
aside from the inhumi that one probably wouldn't want to go 
around in a condition of chronic weakness from blood loss.

Mark

---

From: mark millman <millman at us.ncipher.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:25:25 +0000

Mark

---

From: Jason Ingram <jingram at usc.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 22:34:17 +0000

>when Silk treats her. Quetzal was also very smart for an inhumu.

Quetzal may have been the descendant of inhumi who drank from 
Neighbors, thus possessing other-than-human intelligence (at least, 
as Dan'l Danehy-Oakes argues, prior to consuming human blood).  That 
still leaves the question of how Quetzal got to the Loganstone.

Quetzal might have been the offspring of the hypothesized inhumi who 
were taken with the Neighbors.  He might have been born on Green, 
however.  If several generations of inhumi had passed since the 
Neighbors left, this implies that the trait of augmented intelligence 
lasts--which has implications for the nature of the weapon too heavy 
to bear.  Of course, inhumi might simply live a very long time.

There are other possibilities, of course.  But it seems likely that 
Inhumi can travel through space (beyond the mesosphere, or the 
'Green' equivalent), _or_ had access to craft that could allow space 
travel, _or_ had friends who dropped one or two off, _or_ I've 
forgotten something from the Long Sun series.

Jason

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 08:46:33 +0000

Jason wrote:

> Quetzal might have been the offspring of the hypothesized
> inhumi who were taken with the Neighbors.  

They're not "hypothesized," dammit. The Neighbors _say_ so,
in RETURN. (Don't ask me for a page cite, though; my copies 
of SHORT are out on loan and won't be back for a while.)

> He might have been born on Green, however.  

The word seems to be "must." It appears that the inhumi can
only breed on Green.

> If several generations of inhumi had passed since the Neighbors
> left, 

There are implications that it has been only a short time -- 
I believe I first got that impression on the island with the
not-very-ruined Neighbor-place in BLUE.

---

From: Jason Ingram <jingram at usc.edu>
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 19:47:49 +0000

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:

[re: inhumi taken along with the Nieghbors]

>  of SHORT are out on loan and won't be back for a while.)

Fine; assume the Neighbors never lie and that the narrator is 100%
trustworthy.  That's a reasonable hypothesis, but nevertheless an
assumption.

The important aspect of that assumption (or "fact," whatever) lies in the
effects of the interaction of abilities that enables astral travel, or
bilocation.  Maybe the Neighbors can do some things by themselves, others
only with the inhumi.  Maybe thinking about the relation between Horn's
ability to bilocate in terms of his movement _into_ Silk, as it were, and
the presence of inhumi might shed some light on the pesky question of
astral travel.

I'm also curious about Quetzal's lineage, but that seems to be a minor
thread.

>  > He [Quetzal] might have been born on Green, however.
>

We don't really know much about the abilities of the Neighbors.  They
might be able to replicate inhumi breeding conditions.  They might
not.  Our access to the "truth" of these matters is so buffered that
guarded terms are more appropriate.  If "seems to be" and
"appear" work better, use those words instead of "might."

Again, the question here is-- if Quetzal was born on Green, by what means
did he make his way to the Loganstone.  If by ship, whose, and to what end
did they assist him?  If by other means, which? (inhumi flying through
space, randomly seeking out hosts?  inhumi flying through space pursuing
objects perceived with their incredibly superior perception?)  The answer
might prove interesting; I'm not sure.

>  not-very-ruined Neighbor-place in BLUE.

Agreed.  However, a short time could mean centuries, or decades, depending
on the technology involved and the degree of ruin.  Since we don't know
(or, more precisely, since I can't recall any statements on this
matter) the inhumi lifespan, this could involve generations.  Still
speculation, but pertinent for determining whether intelligence passes
to grandchildren.

Jason