# Crocagators *The Whorl list — 12 messages, 7 voices, 25 Apr 2001* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *25 Apr 2001, 12:58* > The Kitchen Staff Wombat wrote: > My understanding is that the number of human attacks from > crocodilians is very low. They're much like wolves that > way--feared as human predators all out of proportion to the > actual danger they present. Which isn't to say that they > can't sometimes be very dangerous, indeed. Which was pretty much my point. Assuming per argumentam the "Golden Rule" theory of the Secret, _and_ that the human colonists somehow manage to implement it, then the inhumi become "something we can live with," either as benevolent sentients or as dangerous but mindless giant leeches. In fact, there's some doubt in my mind as to how many people are actually killed by the inhumi in the situation which actually holds on Blue at the time of Horn's journey -- I don't recall many examples of someone actually dying from inhumi attacks [excepting the attack on the wedding, as a very special special case]. Do the inhumi, like wolves, bears, sharks, snakes, crocodilians... suffer from exaggerated human fears as to the extent of the danger they pose? I somewhat doubt it, on the grounds that the inhumi (at least in the form we know) are far smarter than wolves, bears, etc., and able to "pass" as humans: a combination that makes one inhumu potentially far more dangerous in the long term than a good-sized pack of wolves. But the Bluvian scenes in SHORT simply don't seem to reflect a people in imminent danger of being wiped out by predators. I dunno. There's _something_ weird missing here, what it is ain't exactly clear... *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. --- ### mark millman *25 Apr 2001, 17:30 · follows Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > At 12:58 PM 25-04-01 -0700, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > The Kitchen Staff Wombat wrote: >> My understanding is that the >> number of human attacks from >> crocodilians is very low. They're >> much like wolves that way-- >> feared as human predators all >> out of proportion to the actual >> danger they present. Which isn't >> to say that they can't sometimes >> be very dangerous, indeed. > Which was pretty much my point. Assuming per argu- > mentam the "Golden Rule" theory of the Secret, _and_ > that the human colonists somehow manage to imple- > ment it, then the inhumi become "something we can live > with," either as benevolent sentients or as dangerous but > mindless giant leeches. > > In fact, there's some doubt in my mind as to how many > people are actually killed by the inhumi in the situation > which actually holds on Blue at the time of Horn's jour- > ney -- I don't recall many examples of someone actually > dying from inhumi attacks [excepting the attack on the > wedding, as a very special special case]. Do the inhumi, > like wolves, bears, sharks, snakes, crocodilians... suffer > from exaggerated human fears as to the extent of the > danger they pose? > > I somewhat doubt it, on the grounds that the inhumi (at > least in the form we know) are far smarter than wolves, > bears, etc., and able to "pass" as humans: a combination > that makes one inhumu potentially far more dangerous in > the long term than a good-sized pack of wolves. But the > Bluvian scenes in SHORT simply don't seem to reflect a > people in imminent danger of being wiped out by > predators. > > I dunno. There's _something_ weird missing here, what > it is ain't exactly clear... > > --Blattid At the risk of being obvious, allow me to point out that, unlike the inhumi, wolves, bears, sharks, snakes, crocodilians, and the like do not preferentially target humans as their prey. Also, as I recall (and I'm afraid that I don't have the book here for reference, so we'll have to depend on my recollection), Fava had to be very careful not to kill Salica when she fed from the old woman. If Fava hadn't been living with the family at the time, she very likely would have been less careful. (If anyone is likely to die from the inhumi's depredations, it would be the old, the very young, and the sick; curiously, though, even the baby Sinew was not killed when he was attacked. I wonder whether this may be a clue; thank you for bringing it up, Dan'l.) I do have to agree with Dan'l, though; the inhumi aren't going to kill off Blue's human population any time soon. Nacre *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. --- ### William Ansley *25 Apr 2001, 22:31 · follows mark millman* > At 5:30 PM -0400 4/25/01, mark millman wrote: > At the risk of being obvious, allow me to point out that, unlike the > inhumi, wolves, bears, sharks, snakes, crocodilians, and the like do > not preferentially target humans as their prey. I don't think that "dumb" inhumi would preferentially target humans as their host. As I read the text, it was just an accident that the inhumi first fed upon the Neighbors and became sentient. > At 11:03 AM -0700 4/25/01, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > (As a side note, how many people are _actually_ attacked by alligators > and the like in a given year? I presume that proper precautions could > make the threat from non-sentient inhumi no greater than that from > crocodilians.) > At 12:58 PM -0700 4/25/01, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > Which was pretty much my point. Assuming per argumentam the > "Golden Rule" theory of the Secret, _and_ that the human > colonists somehow manage to implement it, then the inhumi > become "something we can live with," either as benevolent > sentients or as dangerous but mindless giant leeches. I think "mindless giant leeches" *that can fly* would be a much greater threat that crocodiles. It is easy to stay away from crocodiles, you just don't go near the river/lake they live in. (Unless, of course, it is your only source of drinking water.) Inhumi, on the other hand, can fly so you can't avoid them. I would think, although I can't recall a specific example of this, that they could also squeeze through very small openings, since they have no bones. Certainly, dumb inhumi would be orders of magnitude easier to defend against that smart ones, but I think it would be more difficult than you suggest. William Ansley *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. --- ### Robert Borski *26 Apr 2001, 01:18 · follows William Ansley* Nacre has written: Or even at all, for as Jahlee tells Horn in IGJ p. 377, "I drink blood. Human blood mostly. We don't kill you though. At least very often." Granted, it's in Jahlee's best interests to fudge the truth a bit, but does anyone that we know of in either the Long or Short books actually succumb fatally to an inhumu's bite? I don't recollect a single person. Therefore the comparison with leeches--who only kill those with hereditary or spontaneous idiopathic coagulopathies--is probably dead on. Robert Borski *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. --- ### Adam Stephanides *26 Apr 2001, 09:58 · follows Robert Borski* > on 4/26/01 1:18 AM, Robert Borski at rborski at charter.net wrote: > Nacre has written: > > inhumi aren't going to kill off Blue's human population any time > soon.> > > Or even at all, for as Jahlee tells Horn in IGJ p. 377, "I drink blood. > Human blood mostly. We don't kill you though. At least very often." > > Granted, it's in Jahlee's best interests to fudge the truth a bit, but does > anyone that we know of in either the Long or Short books actually succumb > fatally to an inhumu's bite? I don't recollect a single person. Therefore > the comparison with leeches--who only kill those with hereditary or > spontaneous idiopathic coagulopathies--is probably dead on. There are the thousand of dead bodies in the sewer on Green, whom Horn says have "bled to death" (IGJ, 380); and elsewhere, iirc, Horn says or implies that the inhumi on Green drain the bodies of their slaves when they get too old to work or fight. And Horn, who should know, thinks that Juganu might kill him by drinking his fill; and that if Juganu brought companions he "would certainly die" (but this, as Horn anticipates it, would be premeditated murder by Juganu, not the typical opportunistic inhumi attack) (RttW, 403). But I agree that inhumi attacks do seem to be rarely fatal on Blue, perhaps because on Blue they rarely have the chance to drink their fill without being disturbed. And the inhumi are not going to wipe out the humans of Blue: aside from anything else, in doing so they would be eliminating their main source of human blood. A more realistic danger is that the inhumi would gain control over the humans on Blue, as they have over the Pajarocans and most of those on Green. --Adam *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *26 Apr 2001, 08:48 · follows Adam Stephanides* > Mark Millman wrote: > At the risk of being obvious, allow me to point out that, > unlike the inhumi, wolves, bears, sharks, snakes, crocodilians, > and the like do not preferentially target humans as their prey. At the risk of being contentious, let me observe that only the sentient inhumi do so. But in the universe-of-discourse where humans have come to "love one another," the sentient inhumi will very specifically _not_ target humans; and the non-sentient inhumi, well, won't. a) Special case: Given that the sentient inhumi have developed "human souls," it is possible and even somewhat likely that at least some humans will choose to voluntarily give blood to sentient inhumi so that their children will also have "human souls." This, of course, is not a "danger" situation at all; in fact, this may represent the ideal state of society on the Short Sun whorls: humans _deliberately_ giving blood voluntarily to _all_ inhumi, so the nextgen of inhumi (and thereafter) will be non-threatening, sentient inhumi, who will continue to take blood given voluntarily by humans, etc. (Consider also in this context Octavia Estelle Butler's horrendously effective story "Bloodchild.") > Also, as I recall (and I'm afraid that I don't have the book > here for reference, so we'll have to depend on my recollection), > Fava had to be very careful not to kill Salica when she fed from > the old woman. My recollection also. > If Fava hadn't been living with the family at the time, she very > likely would have been less careful. Are you sure? I'm not. Again, death-by-inhumi-attack seems to be _exceedingly_ rare. --Dan'l *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. --- ### Kevin J. Maroney *26 Apr 2001, 12:44 · follows Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > At 09:58 AM 4/26/01 -0500, Adam wrote: > But I agree that inhumi attacks do seem to be rarely fatal on > Blue, perhaps because on Blue they rarely have the chance to drink their > fill without being disturbed. Though it is worth noting that though Quetzal does not kill Teazel (I think that's her name), he has fed off her more than once and she is near death when Silk treats her. Quetzal was also very smart for an inhumu. ``` Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com Kitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction http://www.nyrsf.com *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. ``` --- ### mark millman *27 Apr 2001, 11:25 · follows Kevin J. Maroney* > At 08:48 AM 26-04-01 -0700, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > Mark Millman wrote: >> At the risk of being obvious, >> allow me to point out that, >> unlike the inhumi, wolves, >> bears, sharks, snakes, croco- >> dilians, and the like do not >> preferentially target humans >> as their prey. > At the risk of being contentious, let me observe that only > the sentient inhumi do so. But in the universe-of-discourse > where humans have come to "love one another," the sen- > tient inhumi will very specifically _not_ target humans; > and the non-sentient inhumi, well, won't. > > [snip] >> Also, as I recall (and I'm >> afraid that I don't have the >> book here for reference, >> so we'll have to depend on >> my recollection), Fava had >> to be very careful not to >> kill Salica when she fed from >> the old woman. > My recollection also. >> If Fava hadn't been living >> with the family at the time, >> she very likely would have >> been less careful. > Are you sure? I'm not. Again, death-by-inhumi-attack > seems to be _exceedingly_ rare. > > --Dan'l Contention welcomed, Dan'l. It's true that only the sentient inhumi specifically target humans; but then it's equally true that these are ex- actly the inhumi that the human population of Blue fears; and I'd be surprised if there were many non-sentient inhumi loose on Blue. The sentient inhumi are as much a source of fear as the (much less common) man-eating shark or tiger or wolf-pack is on Earth, and are the ones that humans would have to bring themselves to accept in an agape-driven world (though the entire humanization-of-the- inhumi-by-voluntary-blood-donation scenario is now discredited). You are right to say that we hardly hear of any deaths from the inhumi's depredations in Short Sun (and of course this has now been discussed at greater length on the list), but there are examples in which victims have been left in a very bad way indeed. Kevin Maroney mentions Teazel in Long Sun, and I recall that General Oosik's son (is his name Muktuk?--again, I don't have the book for reference) is drained so badly that he loses consciousness, leaving him so weak that he cannot stand. These attacks may not be char- acteristic of the situation on Blue, but do demonstrate that inhumi can probably kill if they're so minded (or if they misjudge, etc.). Blue is also a colony world, and there seem to be enough dangers aside from the inhumi that one probably wouldn't want to go around in a condition of chronic weakness from blood loss. Mark *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. --- ### mark millman *27 Apr 2001, 11:25 · follows mark millman* > At 08:48 AM 26-04-01 -0700, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > Mark Millman wrote: >> At the risk of being obvious, >> allow me to point out that, >> unlike the inhumi, wolves, >> bears, sharks, snakes, croco- >> dilians, and the like do not >> preferentially target humans >> as their prey. > At the risk of being contentious, let me observe that only > the sentient inhumi do so. But in the universe-of-discourse > where humans have come to "love one another," the sen- > tient inhumi will very specifically _not_ target humans; > and the non-sentient inhumi, well, won't. > > [snip] >> Also, as I recall (and I'm >> afraid that I don't have the >> book here for reference, >> so we'll have to depend on >> my recollection), Fava had >> to be very careful not to >> kill Salica when she fed from >> the old woman. > My recollection also. >> If Fava hadn't been living >> with the family at the time, >> she very likely would have >> been less careful. > Are you sure? I'm not. Again, death-by-inhumi-attack > seems to be _exceedingly_ rare. > > --Dan'l Contention welcomed, Dan'l. It's true that only the sentient inhumi specifically target humans; but then it's equally true that these are ex- actly the inhumi that the human population of Blue fears; and I'd be surprised if there were many non-sentient inhumi loose on Blue. The sentient inhumi are as much a source of fear as the (much less common) man-eating shark or tiger or wolf-pack is on Earth, and are the ones that humans would have to bring themselves to accept in an agape-driven world (though the entire humanization-of-the- inhumi-by-voluntary-blood-donation scenario is now discredited). You are right to say that we hardly hear of any deaths from the inhumi's depredations in Short Sun (and of course this has now been discussed at greater length on the list), but there are examples in which victims have been left in a very bad way indeed. Kevin Maroney mentions Teazel in Long Sun, and I recall that General Oosik's son (is his name Muktuk?--again, I don't have the book for reference) is drained so badly that he loses consciousness, leaving him so weak that he cannot stand. These attacks may not be char- acteristic of the situation on Blue, but do demonstrate that inhumi can probably kill if they're so minded (or if they misjudge, etc.). Blue is also a colony world, and there seem to be enough dangers aside from the inhumi that one probably wouldn't want to go around in a condition of chronic weakness from blood loss. Mark *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. --- ### Jason Ingram *27 Apr 2001, 22:34 · follows mark millman* > Kevin Maroney wrote: > Though it is worth noting that though Quetzal does not kill Teazel (I think > that's her name), he has fed off her more than once and she is near death > when Silk treats her. Quetzal was also very smart for an inhumu. Quetzal may have been the descendant of inhumi who drank from Neighbors, thus possessing other-than-human intelligence (at least, as Dan'l Danehy-Oakes argues, prior to consuming human blood). That still leaves the question of how Quetzal got to the Loganstone. Quetzal might have been the offspring of the hypothesized inhumi who were taken with the Neighbors. He might have been born on Green, however. If several generations of inhumi had passed since the Neighbors left, this implies that the trait of augmented intelligence lasts--which has implications for the nature of the weapon too heavy to bear. Of course, inhumi might simply live a very long time. There are other possibilities, of course. But it seems likely that Inhumi can travel through space (beyond the mesosphere, or the 'Green' equivalent), _or_ had access to craft that could allow space travel, _or_ had friends who dropped one or two off, _or_ I've forgotten something from the Long Sun series. Jason *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *30 Apr 2001, 08:46 · follows Jason Ingram* > Jason wrote: > Quetzal might have been the offspring of the hypothesized > inhumi who were taken with the Neighbors. They're not "hypothesized," dammit. The Neighbors _say_ so, in RETURN. (Don't ask me for a page cite, though; my copies of SHORT are out on loan and won't be back for a while.) > He might have been born on Green, however. The word seems to be "must." It appears that the inhumi can only breed on Green. > If several generations of inhumi had passed since the Neighbors > left, There are implications that it has been only a short time -- I believe I first got that impression on the island with the not-very-ruined Neighbor-place in BLUE. *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. --- ### Jason Ingram *01 May 2001, 19:47 · follows Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: [re: inhumi taken along with the Nieghbors] > They're not "hypothesized," dammit. The Neighbors _say_ so, > in RETURN. (Don't ask me for a page cite, though; my copies > of SHORT are out on loan and won't be back for a while.) Fine; assume the Neighbors never lie and that the narrator is 100% trustworthy. That's a reasonable hypothesis, but nevertheless an assumption. The important aspect of that assumption (or "fact," whatever) lies in the effects of the interaction of abilities that enables astral travel, or bilocation. Maybe the Neighbors can do some things by themselves, others only with the inhumi. Maybe thinking about the relation between Horn's ability to bilocate in terms of his movement _into_ Silk, as it were, and the presence of inhumi might shed some light on the pesky question of astral travel. I'm also curious about Quetzal's lineage, but that seems to be a minor thread. > > He [Quetzal] might have been born on Green, however. > > The word seems to be "must." It appears that the inhumi can > only breed on Green. We don't really know much about the abilities of the Neighbors. They might be able to replicate inhumi breeding conditions. They might not. Our access to the "truth" of these matters is so buffered that guarded terms are more appropriate. If "seems to be" and "appear" work better, use those words instead of "might." Again, the question here is-- if Quetzal was born on Green, by what means did he make his way to the Loganstone. If by ship, whose, and to what end did they assist him? If by other means, which? (inhumi flying through space, randomly seeking out hosts? inhumi flying through space pursuing objects perceived with their incredibly superior perception?) The answer might prove interesting; I'm not sure. > > If several generations of inhumi had passed since the Neighbors > > left, > > There are implications that it has been only a short time -- > I believe I first got that impression on the island with the > not-very-ruined Neighbor-place in BLUE. Agreed. However, a short time could mean centuries, or decades, depending on the technology involved and the degree of ruin. Since we don't know (or, more precisely, since I can't recall any statements on this matter) the inhumi lifespan, this could involve generations. Still speculation, but pertinent for determining whether intelligence passes to grandchildren. Jason *This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun. ---