{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1404", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1404, "subject": "Destroying Inhumi", "messages": 6, "voices": 4, "first": "2001-04-25T22:43:46+00:00", "last": "2001-04-26T13:57:55+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2001-04-25T22:43:46+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Destroying Inhumi", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Secret, it seems, is a weapon that can destroy the inhumi, but one that \nmay be and likely is too heavy to wield.\n\tI'd like to go back to something someone suggested, which is that when men \nare good, and thus Christlike, then such good people will voluntarily give \nblood as needed to help inhumi become good, as Christ did for humans. \nPractically, such blood could be deposited in blood banks, analogous to \nChrist's deposit of His blood in the Eucharist.\n\tThis has not satisfied because transforming the inhumi does not seem to be \na weapon to destroy them. But is this the right understanding? SS is \nclearly a religious as well as a political and personal novel. Twice we \nhave eucharistic scenes. That's no accident: In Christian thought the \nEucharist is eating and drinking Christ's death into oneself, so that one \ncan die to one's own evil and be born anew, over and over again. I suggest \nthat to transform the inhumi into true humans is precisely to destroy \ninhumi, to destroy what makes them IN-humi.\n\tPay close attention to the name Wolfe has given them: We humans are \nusually inhumi, unless we \"die\" in Christ and are \"raised\" to a new life.\n\tIn short, I suspect that destroying the inhumi has a religious meaning, \nnot a military one.\n\tGrist for the mill.\n\nNutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-04-26T09:05:16+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Destroying Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "PatNutRit:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Secret, it seems, is a weapon that can destroy the inhumi," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, no, a _thousand_ times no! Horn says clearly that it will not,\nthat it will reduce them to mindless beasts. (Of course, you might\nconsider that a form of \"destruction.\") So far, \"love each other\"\nis the _only_ suggestion that has any plausible hope of doing this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Practically, such blood could be deposited in blood banks,\nanalogous to Christ's deposit of His blood in the Eucharist." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not the Catholic (& therefore Lupine) understanding of the \nEucharist. In the Eucharist, the Sacrifice of the Messiah is\n-- not reenacted, but made present, in a sense which transcends\ntime and space: thus, the blood which the wine becomes is not\nblood \"deposited\" in some mystical blood bank, but actually bled\nat that (eternal, universal, non-temporal) moment. This is, btw,\nanalogous to the original Passover, in which the message is \"God\ndid so-and-so for us\" -- not \"for our ancestors,\" but \"for us\";\nin eating the Passover, a Jew of this day and age is mystically\npresent at the original Exodus. All the People of Israel are \npresent at Sinai.\n\nA somewhat subtler objection is \"if the secret will reduce\nthe inhumi to mindless beasts, the Love One Another hypothesis\nwon't work _because_ humans will voluntarily give their blood\nto the inhumi.\" Ahhh, but the inhumi to whom they give their\nblood become human (at least in spirit); so the only pure inhumi \nare, precisely, the mindless beasts. This, of course, is true \neven as Horn speaks: Krait, Jahlee, Fava, etc., are in fact human \nin spirit. But they represent danger _because_ the kind of human\nthey have become is not a being of Agape; and the \"weapon\" is \n\"too heavy to weild\" _because_ humans, _not_ loving each other,\nwill not voluntarily give their blood to the inhumi anyway. It\nis \"too heavy to weild:\" it is not practical (in the Fallen World,\nin which Blue, Green, Urth, and the _Whorl_ all inhere) to suppose\nthat humans will as-a-race become Agape-driven, and so they cannot\neven lift the \"sword\" that would destroy the inhumi _as a threat_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This has not satisfied because transforming the inhumi does not\nseem to be a weapon to destroy them. But is this the right\nunderstanding? SS is clearly a religious as well as a political\nand personal novel. Twice we have eucharistic scenes. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right -- the \"agape feast\" is brought into extreme foreground." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's no accident: In Christian thought the Eucharist is eating\nand drinking Christ's death into oneself, so that one can die to\none's own evil and be born anew, over and over again. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Clearly you're not of the \"once for all\" persuasion. ;*)\n\nMy own understanding is a bit different from the \"over and over\nagain\" you cite here -- Catholicism, as I understand it, teaches\nnot that the Eucharist is rebirth (that happens at Baptism), but\nof the process by which we are gradually sanctified, con-formed\nto the Image of Christ. By analogy, repeated feeding from \nAgapistic humans would gradually sanctify the inhumi, and con-form\nthem to Agape." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suggest that to transform the inhumi into true humans is\nprecisely to destroy inhumi, to destroy what makes them IN-humi.\nPay close attention to the name Wolfe has given them: We humans\nare usually inhumi, unless we \"die\" in Christ and are \"raised\"\nto a new life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummmm. I _think_ the root of the word is not \"human (ex _homo_)\" \nbut \"humus.\" The prefix \"in\" is ambiguous, and can mean \"not\" or\nsimply \"in.\" Thus, the inhumi are \"not-Earthly,\" and, at the same\ntime, thay are the \"in-Earth,\" the Buried, in at least the sense\nof \"hidden,\" but becoming horrifically literal in the marketplace \nof Gaon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In short, I suspect that destroying the inhumi has a religious\nmeaning, not a military one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There we are in complete agreement 8*)\n\nBlat, blat,\n\n--Blattid/Dan'l\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2001-04-26T12:53:16+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Destroying Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:05 AM 4/26/01 -0700, Dan'l wrote:\nNo, no, a _thousand_ times no! Horn says clearly that it will not,\nthat it will reduce them to mindless beasts. (Of course, you might\nconsider that a form of \"destruction.\") So far, \"love each other\"\nis the _only_ suggestion that has any plausible hope of doing this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Travel to Green; kill all the humans and sentient inhumi there\" might also\ndo it. That would be a very heavy weapon indeed, because it would require\nmass slaughter of sentient, innocent, beings, including the children of the\ninhumi. \n\nIt is possible that non-sentient inhumi cannot pass to Blue. If I\nunderstand correctly, the Neighbors didn't encounter the inhumi until the\nNeighbors came to Green, so it is possible that the inhumi could not bridge\nthe gap between the planets until they had acquired something from the\nNeighbors; if the inhumi all were devolved to beasts, then perhaps they\nwould once again be stranded on Green. \n\nBut I feel I am standing on sand, and wish that I had some bedrock on which\nto build this interpretation." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Kevin Maroney | Unplugged Games \n kmaroney at ungames.com | (212) 777-1190\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-04-26T10:21:11+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Destroying Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In response to my:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "... So far, \"love each other\" is the _only_ suggestion that\nhas any plausible hope of [reducing the inhumi to mindless\nbeasts]," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Kevin wrote:\n\"Travel to Green; kill all the humans and sentient inhumi there\"\nmight also do it. That would be a very heavy weapon indeed,\nbecause it would require mass slaughter of sentient, innocent,\nbeings, including the children of the inhumi. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is true -- but I'm not sure it's relevant. While \"Love One\nAnother\" may not be The Secret, it clearly must be related to\nThe Secret; slaughtering the entire human population of Green \nwould _not_ fit this criterion. (As an alternative, what about\ninviting the entire human population of Green to come live on\nBlue, and then genociding the sentient inhumi... But no; that\nsimply couldn't be done with any measure of certainty.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is possible that non-sentient inhumi cannot pass to Blue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And more likely that it wouldn't occur to them to do so.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2001-04-26T12:18:26+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Destroying Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 09:05 AM 4/26/2001 -0700, Blattid wrote:\nPractically, such blood could be deposited in blood banks,\nanalogous to Christ's deposit of His blood in the Eucharist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not the Catholic (& therefore Lupine) understanding of the\nEucharist. In the Eucharist, the Sacrifice of the Messiah is\n-- not reenacted, but made present, in a sense which transcends\ntime and space: thus, the blood which the wine becomes is not\nblood \"deposited\" in some mystical blood bank, but actually bled\nat that (eternal, universal, non-temporal) moment. This is, btw,\nanalogous to the original Passover, in which the message is \"God\ndid so-and-so for us\" -- not \"for our ancestors,\" but \"for us\";\nin eating the Passover, a Jew of this day and age is mystically\npresent at the original Exodus. All the People of Israel are\npresent at Sinai." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Well sure. That's being more precise than I was being, but I think \nthe analogy fits either way. As you probably know there is more than one \nversion of \"transubstantiation\" in RC thought today, but whether Wolfe \nwould agree completely with the particulars you set out or not, the basic \nnotion is the same." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A somewhat subtler objection is \"if the secret will reduce\nthe inhumi to mindless beasts, the Love One Another hypothesis\nwon't work _because_ humans will voluntarily give their blood\nto the inhumi.\" Ahhh, but the inhumi to whom they give their\nblood become human (at least in spirit); so the only pure inhumi\nare, precisely, the mindless beasts. This, of course, is true\neven as Horn speaks: Krait, Jahlee, Fava, etc., are in fact human\nin spirit. But they represent danger _because_ the kind of human\nthey have become is not a being of Agape; and the \"weapon\" is\n\"too heavy to weild\" _because_ humans, _not_ loving each other,\nwill not voluntarily give their blood to the inhumi anyway. It\nis \"too heavy to weild:\" it is not practical (in the Fallen World,\nin which Blue, Green, Urth, and the _Whorl_ all inhere) to suppose\nthat humans will as-a-race become Agape-driven, and so they cannot\neven lift the \"sword\" that would destroy the inhumi _as a threat_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Agree. Some inhumi become humi, others revert to animals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's no accident: In Christian thought the Eucharist is eating\nand drinking Christ's death into oneself, so that one can die to\none's own evil and be born anew, over and over again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My own understanding is a bit different from the \"over and over\nagain\" you cite here -- Catholicism, as I understand it, teaches\nnot that the Eucharist is rebirth (that happens at Baptism), but\nof the process by which we are gradually sanctified, con-formed\nto the Image of Christ. By analogy, repeated feeding from\nAgapistic humans would gradually sanctify the inhumi, and con-form\nthem to Agape." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Either way. I think ultimately it is pretty much the same thing. \nWe must \"die\" to sin daily, and be \"raised\" daily, so being \"born anew\" \ndaily stems from the Baptismal beginning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ummmm. I _think_ the root of the word is not \"human (ex _homo_)\"\nbut \"humus.\" The prefix \"in\" is ambiguous, and can mean \"not\" or\nsimply \"in.\" Thus, the inhumi are \"not-Earthly,\" and, at the same\ntime, thay are the \"in-Earth,\" the Buried, in at least the sense\nof \"hidden,\" but becoming horrifically literal in the marketplace\nof Gaon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Well, Wolfe has his pregnant puns, and surely \"inhumi\" also \nconnotes \"inhumane.\"\n\n I think we are in essential agreement.\n\nNutria\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-04-26T13:57:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Destroying Inhumi", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 4/26/01 11:53 AM, Kevin J. Maroney at kmaroney at ungames.com wrote:\nIt is possible that non-sentient inhumi cannot pass to Blue. If I\nunderstand correctly, the Neighbors didn't encounter the inhumi until the\nNeighbors came to Green, so it is possible that the inhumi could not bridge\nthe gap between the planets until they had acquired something from the\nNeighbors; if the inhumi all were devolved to beasts, then perhaps they\nwould once again be stranded on Green." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not that they couldn't bridge the gap (I think the inhumi do fly from Green\nto Blue, despite the physical implausibility), but that they had no reason\nto, since they had plenty of non-intelligent prey on Green and no desire for\nintelligent prey (nor inkling that any prey existed on Blue, intelligent or\nnot). Devolved inhumi would presumably be in the same position.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }