{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1426", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1426, "subject": "Silkhorn^H^H^H^H and Severian", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2001-05-31T15:14:41+00:00", "last": "2001-06-01T12:30:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2001-05-31T15:14:41+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Silkhorn^H^H^H^H and Severian", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I promised you folks an unfounded speculation. \nSeveral\nparticipants on this list have mentioned that some\ncrucial event seems to occur between Silkhorn's last\ntwo astral trips to Urth. In the second-last, Hoof\nsays Silkhorn \"looked more like our father there, not\nreally like him, but more than on Blue.\" (RRTTW,\nChap.\n17, two trips in quick succession to the _Samru_.) In\nthe last, Hoof says, \"Before he had looked a lot like\nour real father, and Hide says that is the way he\nalways looked on the Red Sun Whorl. Now he did not.\" \n(Chap. 19, a mausoleum [apparently not Severian's\nhideout] in the necropolis, and the oubliette.) But\nwe're told about very little that happens between\nthese two trips. And what is the reason for this\nstrange clarity on such an important point as the\nhero's\nastral appearance?\n\nSeveral people have also criticized Silkhorn's\nmeetings\nwith Severian for being indecisive, apparently just\nfor\ndecoration--\"fanficcy\", as Jacob Corbin aptly said.\n\nSo could there be a connection between these two\npuzzles? Are you already ahead of me? Does Severian\nby his mere presence resurrect Silk? Right around the\nsame time, Triskele stirred to life beneath his hand,\ntwo years before the Claw came to him. (From\nsomewhere\nat the end of _Citadel_.)\n\nThere's a strong objection to this speculation: the\ntransformation happens at the wrong time. We might\nhave expected it at Silkhorn's first meeting with\nSeverian (Chap. 13), or failing that, when he dreams\nof\nSeverian (Chap. 15), or at their last meeting, but not\nin between.\n\nI can see two answers to the objection. First, time\ndoes strange things around Severian and the Claw (or\nvice-versa). Second, maybe it was a gradual process\nthat Hoof didn't really notice till it was (almost?)\ncomplete. This latter could also apply to other\npossible causes for the change of appearance.\n\nIncidentally, the trip on the _Samru_ to see the Great\nScylla might also have had something to do with Silk's\nresurrection. The trip ends on Ocean, and maybe they\npass the beaches where the wild roses grow whose\nthorns\nare Claws. (Yes, it's my favorite scene too. And \nabove I typed \"horns\" instead of \"thorns\".)\n\nAny comments?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-05-31T16:24:31+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Silkhorn^H^H^H^H and Severian", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nAny comments?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I suppose ... a few ...\n\nGiven the change in the Narr's astrally-projected \"appearance,\" \nI suspect that, yes, there is a change in his or their \"soul\" \nsomewhere, somehow, in between those two dates. I supsect it may \nnot, however, have anything directly to do with Li'l Severian.\n\nActually, I feel like Darwin dealing with Wallace: I haven't \nformulated a really solid theory, yet, which is why I haven't \nposted it yet, but given that Jerry is now concentrating on \nthe significant parts of the text (which have hitherto been\nmentioned in passing but not really attended to), I think I want \nto stick my oar in and establish a sort of priority on what I \ndo have. \n\nThe missing piece here is the deScyllification of Oreb. \n\nThe connection is fairly clear at a structural level: \n\n\t(A) something happens to free a body (Oreb's) of a \n\t soul or astral persona (Scylla-the-daughter-of-Pas) \n\t which has possessed or partially possessed it, or, \n\t mutatis mutandis, to free that soul or astral \n\t persona from the body which has possessed it; \n\n\t(B) something happens to change the soul or astral \n\t persona (Horn's?) associated with a body (Silk's) \n\t which seems to be or to have been partially \n\t possessed. \n\n\nBut this isn't really developed into any kind of thesis or \ntheory, as you can see; all I'm saying here is \"this pattern \nseems to establish something of the possible meaning-space \nfor case (B) by putting it into relief against case (A).\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I promised you folks an unfounded speculation. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It doesn't look unfounded to me, though I'm not readly to agree\nwith the conclusions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Several people have also criticized Silkhorn's meetings\nwith Severian for being indecisive, apparently just for\ndecoration--\"fanficcy\", as Jacob Corbin aptly said." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think they may even be a deliberate red herring. Or, if they\nserve as real clues, they may be serving as clues to something\nelse entirely.\n\n(H'mmm. If Sev is sort-of-kind-of Jesus, and Silk is sort-\nof-kind-of Moses, then can this be a sort-of-kind-of \nTransfiguration, a fancy name for the scene in the Gospels\nwhere Peter sees Jesus chatting with his old pals Moses and\nAbraham... Naaaaaah...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does Severian by his mere presence resurrect Silk? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find this highly dubious for half a dozen reasons; the most\nimportant of which: I think Silk is neither more nor less dead \nat the end of _RttW_ than he is when the Narr first takes up\nhis pen in Gaon. The \"climax\" of _RttW_ is not a resurrection \nbut a recognition, and what is recognized is something that the\nNarr has been trying very hard not to see since long before he\nbegan astrally travelling to Green, let alone Urth. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's a strong objection to this speculation: the\ntransformation happens at the wrong time. We might have \nexpected it at Silkhorn's first meeting with Severian (Chap.\n13), or failing that, when he dreams of Severian (Chap. 15),\nor at their last meeting, but not in between." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here is one weakness your theory clearly doesn't have. On the\nmany occasions when Sev commits miracles without knowing it,\nhe seems to do so in a rather haphazard fashion, and not \nnecessarily at the first opportunity. (How many encounters \ndoes he have with water before suddenly turning some into \nwine... And it isn't as if that had been for a wedding!)\n\n\n--Dan'l\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-06-01T08:33:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Silkhorn^H^H^H^H and Severian", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 31 May 2001, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nIncidentally, the trip on the _Samru_ to see the Great\nScylla might also have had something to do with Silk's\nresurrection. The trip ends on Ocean, and maybe they\npass the beaches where the wild roses grow whose\nthorns are Claws. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is kind of a joke isn't it? Isn't the whole point of that scene that\nthe \"Claw\" is merely a common thorn that is holy and powerful only in the\nsense everything made by the Increate is holy and powerful? \n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-06-01T08:54:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Silkhorn^H^H^H^H and Severian", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 31 May 2001, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nThere's a strong objection to this speculation: the\ntransformation happens at the wrong time. We might\nhave expected it at Silkhorn's first meeting with\nSeverian (Chap. 13), or failing that, when he dreams\nof\nSeverian (Chap. 15), or at their last meeting, but not\nin between." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silk isn't whole when he's astrally traveling - he's separated from his\nbody. So it's reasonable that any healing that Severian initiates might\nnot bear fruit until after Silk's soul is reunited with his body." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And then, on Thu, 31 May 2001, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n(H'mmm. If Sev is sort-of-kind-of Jesus, and Silk is sort-\nof-kind-of Moses, then can this be a sort-of-kind-of\nTransfiguration, a fancy name for the scene in the Gospels\nwhere Peter sees Jesus chatting with his old pals Moses and\nAbraham... Naaaaaah...) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to admit I kinda like this, but it would work better if Silk met\nSeverian just before he left for Yesod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does Severian by his mere presence resurrect Silk?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find this highly dubious for half a dozen reasons; the most\nimportant of which: I think Silk is neither more nor less dead\nat the end of _RttW_ than he is when the Narr first takes up\nhis pen in Gaon. The \"climax\" of _RttW_ is not a resurrection\nbut a recognition, and what is recognized is something that the\nNarr has been trying very hard not to see since long before he\nbegan astrally travelling to Green, let alone Urth. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree it's overstating things to say Silk is resurrected, but I think\nyou could say he has been healed in some way. And Severian is definitely\nable to heal people.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com" }, "date": "2001-06-01T12:30:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Silkhorn^H^H^H^H and Severian", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Hmmm. Others have objected that Silk merely recognizes who he has \nbeen all along at the end, but I've never been happy with that. I think you \nare on to something really important. I think up to this point, the \nNarrator really has been Horn in Silk's body, and that then Silk is \nresurrected in some important sense, with the result that both are now \nalive in Silk's body at the end. In fact, given how Severian himself \nexists, I'd say Silk is now primary, with Horn alive inside him, as Thecla \nand others are alive inside of Severian. Silk is primary, like Severian, \nbecause it is Silk's body and not Horn's.\n I'm thinking too of the words of the Neighbor, that Silk's \n\"spirit\" is dying. Clearly Silk's body does not die. When Silk's spirit is \nresurrected (and as Dan'l noted, he is in astral form, so a \"spirit\" \nresurrection makes perfect sense), it takes back over Silk's body, and Horn \nrecedes to a Thecla status. Like Thecla, Horn's body is dead, but his \nspirit still lives, in Silk.\n Your thesis supports my \"Christian theology\" contention that \nHorn-Narrator has been living off the body and blood of Silk, and adds to \nit that after Silk's resurrection, Horn lives \"in Silk.\" Both are core \naspects of Christian thought (Christians live off the body and blood of the \ncrucified Christ; Christians life \"in\" the resurrected Christ), and it \nmakes a lot of sense to me that Wolfe would play with both ideas.\n I like your thesis a lot. It justifies what seems like a wholly \ngratuitous introduction of Severian into the text, and I think it ties up a \nlot of questions. I'm on your side (for now anyway).\n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 03:14 PM 5/31/2001 -0700, you wrote:\nI promised you folks an unfounded speculation.\nSeveral\nparticipants on this list have mentioned that some\ncrucial event seems to occur between Silkhorn's last\ntwo astral trips to Urth. In the second-last, Hoof\nsays Silkhorn \"looked more like our father there, not\nreally like him, but more than on Blue.\" (RRTTW,\nChap.\n17, two trips in quick succession to the _Samru_.) In\nthe last, Hoof says, \"Before he had looked a lot like\nour real father, and Hide says that is the way he\nalways looked on the Red Sun Whorl. Now he did not.\"\n(Chap. 19, a mausoleum [apparently not Severian's\nhideout] in the necropolis, and the oubliette.) But\nwe're told about very little that happens between\nthese two trips. And what is the reason for this\nstrange clarity on such an important point as the\nhero's\nastral appearance?\n\nSeveral people have also criticized Silkhorn's\nmeetings\nwith Severian for being indecisive, apparently just\nfor\ndecoration--\"fanficcy\", as Jacob Corbin aptly said.\n\nSo could there be a connection between these two\npuzzles? Are you already ahead of me? Does Severian\nby his mere presence resurrect Silk? Right around the\nsame time, Triskele stirred to life beneath his hand,\ntwo years before the Claw came to him. (From\nsomewhere\nat the end of _Citadel_.)\n\nThere's a strong objection to this speculation: the\ntransformation happens at the wrong time. We might\nhave expected it at Silkhorn's first meeting with\nSeverian (Chap. 13), or failing that, when he dreams\nof\nSeverian (Chap. 15), or at their last meeting, but not\nin between.\n\nI can see two answers to the objection. First, time\ndoes strange things around Severian and the Claw (or\nvice-versa). Second, maybe it was a gradual process\nthat Hoof didn't really notice till it was (almost?)\ncomplete. This latter could also apply to other\npossible causes for the change of appearance.\n\nIncidentally, the trip on the _Samru_ to see the Great\nScylla might also have had something to do with Silk's\nresurrection. The trip ends on Ocean, and maybe they\npass the beaches where the wild roses grow whose\nthorns\nare Claws. (Yes, it's my favorite scene too. And\nabove I typed \"horns\" instead of \"thorns\".)\n\nAny comments?\n\n--\nJerry Friedman\n\n__________________________________________________\nDo You Yahoo!?\nGet personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35\na year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }