{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1430", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1430, "subject": "Digest whorl.v012.n133", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2001-06-04T13:50:37+00:00", "last": "2001-06-04T14:49:17+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2001-06-04T13:50:37+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n133", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nSubject: RE: (whorl) Silkhorn^H^H^H^H and Severian\nDate: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:24:31 -0700\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; \n charset=iso-8859-1\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\n\nJerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Any comments?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, I suppose ... a few ...\n\nGiven the change in the Narr's astrally-projected\n\"appearance,\" \nI suspect that, yes, there is a change in his or\ntheir \"soul\" \nsomewhere, somehow, in between those two dates. I\nsupsect it may \nnot, however, have anything directly to do with Li'l\nSeverian.\n\nActually, I feel like Darwin dealing with Wallace: I\nhaven't \nformulated a really solid theory, yet, which is why\nI haven't \nposted it yet, but given that Jerry is now\nconcentrating on \nthe significant parts of the text (which have\nhitherto been\nmentioned in passing but not really attended to), I\nthink I want \nto stick my oar in and establish a sort of priority\non what I \ndo have. \n\nThe missing piece here is the deScyllification of\nOreb. \n\nThe connection is fairly clear at a structural\nlevel: \n\n\t(A) something happens to free a body (Oreb's) of a \n\t soul or astral persona\n(Scylla-the-daughter-of-Pas) \n\t which has possessed or partially possessed it,\nor, \n\t mutatis mutandis, to free that soul or astral \n\t persona from the body which has possessed it; \n\n\t(B) something happens to change the soul or astral \n\t persona (Horn's?) associated with a body\n(Silk's) \n\t which seems to be or to have been partially \n\t possessed. \n\n\nBut this isn't really developed into any kind of\nthesis or \ntheory, as you can see; all I'm saying here is \"this\npattern \nseems to establish something of the possible\nmeaning-space \nfor case (B) by putting it into relief against case\n(A).\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nww that you mention it, I can see a parallel between\nthe two events, but I'm still loooking forward to your\nshowing any other kind of connection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I promised you folks an unfounded speculation. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It doesn't look unfounded to me, though I'm not\nreadly to agree\nwith the conclusions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's unfounded in the sense that I don't know of any\npositive evidence for it. There's just an event\nwithout an apparent cause right next to an event\nwithout much apparent effect. I was hoping someone\nwould find more definite evidence for (or against) my\nspeculation.\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does Severian by his mere presence resurrect Silk? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find this highly dubious for half a dozen reasons;\nthe most important of which: I think Silk is neither\nmore nor less dead at the end of _RttW_ than he is\nwhen the Narr first takes up his pen in Gaon. The\n\"climax\" of _RttW_ is not a resurrection but a\nrecognition, and what is recognized is something\nthat\nthe Narr has been trying very hard not to see since\nlong before he began astrally travelling to Green, \nlet alone Urth. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it doesn't seem that settled to me, but let me\nrephrase the question in line with Rostrum's point,\nwhich I should have considered in the first place:\nDoes Severian by his mere presence contribute to\nhealing Silk? What's the next-best reason to find it\ndubious?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's a strong objection to this speculation: the\ntransformation happens at the wrong time. We might\nhave \nexpected it at Silkhorn's first meeting with\nSeverian (Chap.\n13), or failing that, when he dreams of Severian\n(Chap. 15),\nor at their last meeting, but not in between." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here is one weakness your theory clearly doesn't\nhave. On the many occasions when Sev commits\nmiracles\nwithout knowing it, he seems to do so in a rather\nhaphazard fashion, and not necessarily at the first\nopportunity. (How many encounters does he have with\nwater before suddenly turning some into wine... And\nit isn't as if that had been for a wedding!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, but does he ever perform a miracle that takes\neffect at some point in the next few days?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2001-06-04T13:54:43+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n133", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Michael Straight \nSubject: Re: (whorl) Silkhorn^H^H^H^H and Severian\nDate: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:33:31 -0400 (EDT)\n\nOn Thu, 31 May 2001, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Incidentally, the trip on the _Samru_ to see the\nGreat\nScylla might also have had something to do with\nSilk's\nresurrection. The trip ends on Ocean, and maybe\nthey\npass the beaches where the wild roses grow whose\nthorns are Claws. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is kind of a joke isn't it? Isn't the whole\npoint of that scene that the \"Claw\" is merely a\ncommon thorn that is holy and powerful only in the\nsense everything made by the Increate is holy and \npowerful? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right, and I don't know how I was overlooking\nthat, but I wasn't joking. I think there still might\nbe something special about the Claw and those bushes.\nShould I subscribe to the Urth list to discuss this\nfurther?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-06-04T14:49:17+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n133", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nww that you mention it, I can see a parallel between\nthe two events, but I'm still loooking forward to your\nshowing any other kind of connection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... so am I. This is a case where I am looking at a repeated \npattern and saying, in nerdish tone, \"This _means_ something,\" \nbut am not yet clear on just _what_ it means. I haven't quite \nstarted building models of the Whorl out of mashed potatoes. \nYet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's just an event without an apparent cause right next\nto an event without much apparent effect. I was hoping\nsomeone would find more definite evidence for (or against)\nmy speculation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, when you put it at that level of abstraction, it\nsounds much more convincing. (Odd; normally lower levels of\nabstraction convince me better. Somehow, with Mr Wolfe's work, \nthis gets reversed.) Since I have -- somewhat prematurely,\nperhaps -- determined to take the position that tBotSS does \nin fact make some kind of coherent sense, but that it is up \nto us to tease it out of the text, I suppose I'm likely to\njump at anything that looks promising." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... [L]et me rephrase the question in line with Rostrum's\npoint, which I should have considered in the first place:\nDoes Severian by his mere presence contribute to healing\nSilk? What's the next-best reason to find it dubious?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Phrased that way, without an unnecessary and doubtful \nresurrection, I find it far less dubious. I'm inclined to\nagree that the Narr, at the story's end, is a being like\nSeverian-and-Thecla[-and-sometimes-a-whole-lotta-Autarchs-too];\nbut I'm disinclined, modulo something very concrete, to\nbelieve that there is any meaningful way in which Silk is\n\"dead\" at the beginning of OBW but alive at the end of RttW.\nWhatever exactly happens so that the Narr can finally be\ncalled \"Silk\" openly after his interview with Remora, it\nseems to be less a resurrection and more a revelation of\nsomething that the Narr has been avoiding admitting to \nhimself since page one.\n\nThat said, tBotSS offers the prettiest Lupine problem in time-\nof-narration since PEACE. Some of the events narrated by the \nNarr are told in a near-present first-person, shortly after \nthey occur; some in middle-past tense; some in fairly-distant \npast tense, gradually catching up (?) with the present. And \nthen the whole document is, apparently, subject to at least \nlight \"editing\" and significant supplementing by up to four \nother persons, at an unknown distance of time after the \ndeparture of the Narr. While we seem to have fairly clear \nindications of which bits fit into which category, the presence \nof the editors makes it somewhat ambiguous -- we know that the \neditors do not object to inserting a few obvious editorial \ncomments into the text; have they made any less obvious \ncomments? Any fictionalizing? Any tonings-down or deletions? \nCan we even begin to guess? And to what extent are their \n\"reconstructions\" of events on the _Whorl_ to be trusted,\nanyway? How much did the Narr really tell them, how much do\nthey make up? This is the problem of tBotLS grown up and\nturned very nasty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True, but does he ever perform a miracle that takes\neffect at some point in the next few days?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How would he know?\n\n--Dan'l\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }