{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1451", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1451, "subject": "Fan fic? Fooey.", "messages": 10, "voices": 4, "first": "2001-06-19T09:10:29+00:00", "last": "2001-06-20T23:41:40+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-06-19T09:10:29+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Fan fic? Fooey.", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or pfui. With all due respect to the various people who've \nused this term, I'm just about apoplectic from not shouting \nat you about it, and now I will.\n\nLook. Whatever _tBotSS_ is (or the editors-written third-\nperson parts of it, or even \"selected bits\" of those), it \nain't fanfic. The term is specific, refers to the parasitic \ncreation of new stories in a _fictional_ world _created by \nsome other person or corporate entity_, on an amateur or \nnot-for-profit basis, and usually (but not always) quite \n_bad_. The best-known, if not actually dominant, forms, \nare the [erotic|pornographic] \"slash\" fiction* and the\nMaryJane.\n\n----------\n* The concept of / fiction in the Lupiverse has its own \n peculiar horrors to offer. Severian/Severian?\n----------\n\nWhat makes the concept ludicrous is this: Who is the \nfan writing the fanfic? Not Wolfe, certainly; he's the \ncreator of all this. Not the editorial kids; what comes \nfrom them isn't fiction -- it's either reconstruction \nor outright lies.\n\n(Where did that one conversation come from? Maybe\nOreb? Naaaaah...)\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2001-06-19T13:38:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Fan fic? Fooey.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:10 AM 6/19/01 -0700, Blattid wrote:\nThe term is specific, refers to the parasitic" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not that we're loading up with judgmental terms here, no, no." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "creation of new stories in a _fictional_ world _created by\nsome other person or corporate entity_, on an amateur or\nnot-for-profit basis, and usually (but not always) quite\n_bad_. The best-known, if not actually dominant, forms,\nare the [erotic|pornographic] \"slash\" fiction* and the\nMaryJane." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Mary Sue\".\n\nBut your basic point is right; whatever Hoof and Hide are doing, it's not \n\"fanfic\"." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://www.nyrsf.com\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-06-19T11:22:27+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Fan fic? Fooey.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Responding to my use of the term \"parasitic,\" his " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wombattitude wrote:\nNot that we're loading up with judgmental terms here, no, no." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, no. I meant the word in a strictly technical sense;\nthe existence of fanfic is completely dependent on, and\ndraws its energy from, the primary creator of the fictional\nworld. (Or would that be \"secondary creator,\" since the\nfictional world is, by definition, a secondary creation?\nIn which case the fanfic writer is a tertiary creator, \nand...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "MaryJane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Mary Sue\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. Mary Janes are those shoes. Guess who doesn't read\nmuch fanfic? (Though I wrote some, and even got paid for\nit, a very long time ago. It was very bad indeed.)\n\nIn my defense, I was careful to say \"usually (but not \nalways) quite _bad_.\" I know that good fanfic exists;\nI'm just not intrepid enough to wade through the jungles\nof sludge and dig out the good stuff.\n\nAn interesting side note: Are franchise novels fanfic?\nEver? Is \"fanfic\" a boolean or a fuzzy term? One can\nsee a kind of spectrum running from purest fanfic; to \nthings like the \"Best of Trek\" anthologies; to the more\nblatantly fannish Trek novels (i.e., \"Spock, Messiah\");\nto the professionally franchised books; to \"authorized\ncontinuations\" like the Anderson/B.Herbert DUNE books\nand the \"New Foundation Trilogy\"; to hommage and parody;\nto \"heavily influenced,\" and finally ending with \"pure\" \ncreation (which is _never_ pure).\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2001-06-19T15:26:28+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Fan fic? Fooey.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:22 AM 6/19/01 -0700, you wrote:\nNo, no. I meant the word in a strictly technical sense;\nthe existence of fanfic is completely dependent on, and\ndraws its energy from, the primary creator of the fictional\nworld. (Or would that be \"secondary creator,\" since the\nfictional world is, by definition, a secondary creation?\nIn which case the fanfic writer is a tertiary creator,\nand...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not certain I'd agree with that. The point of fanfic is to create works \nwhich fulfill a need that the original author's work doesn't fill, whether \nthat desire is to see Kirk and Spock doing it or seeing how Xena reacts to \nmeeting Patty Duke.\n\n(Besides, the biologists I studied under in college said that the term \n\"parasite\" was falling out of favor because it was impossible to define \nclearly....)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An interesting side note: Are franchise novels fanfic?\nEver? Is \"fanfic\" a boolean or a fuzzy term? One can\nsee a kind of spectrum running from purest fanfic; to\nthings like the \"Best of Trek\" anthologies; to the more\nblatantly fannish Trek novels (i.e., \"Spock, Messiah\");\nto the professionally franchised books; to \"authorized\ncontinuations\" like the Anderson/B.Herbert DUNE books\nand the \"New Foundation Trilogy\"; to hommage and parody;\nto \"heavily influenced,\" and finally ending with \"pure\"\ncreation (which is _never_ pure)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would argue that William Shatner's _Star Trek_ novels are blatant fanfic. \nMary Sue fanfic, at that." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://www.nyrsf.com\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-06-19T15:23:53+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Fan fic? Fooey.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me on parasitism:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...the existence of fanfic is completely dependent on, and\ndraws its energy from, the primary creator of the fictional\nworld." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not certain I'd agree with that. The point of fanfic is\nto create works which fulfill a need that the original\nauthor's work doesn't fill, whether that desire is to see\nKirk and Spock doing it or seeing how Xena reacts to meeting\nPatty Duke." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "H'mmm. Perhaps rather than \"energy\" I should've said \"power\";\nin any case, my point is that fanfickers don't have to create\nthings like characters and settings, they use pre-existing\nones and depend on conditioned responses (their own and other\nreaders') to provide much of the buy-in. That is: if you keep \nthe characters' behavioral and speech patterns pretty much \nconsistent with what's in their original shows/stories, you \ncan rely on the reader investing them with a lot of the life\n(energy, power, whatever) the original writer/director/actor/\nwhatever gave them. So you don't have to do very much with K \nand S; set up the right circumstances (the \"hurt/comfort \nscene,\" a term I'm ripping off from Joanna Russ's essay on\nfanfic), and let the biology roll." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Besides, the biologists I studied under in college said\nthat the term \"parasite\" was falling out of favor because\nit was impossible to define clearly....)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So are \"species\" and \"organism.\" (\"Ecosystem\" and \"biome\"\nactually turn out to be a little easier.) Like \"parasite,\" \nthe terms are too damn useful (and too damn well-embedded \nin biological discourse) to go away any time soon.\n\nPerhaps, though, the right word would be \"saprophytic\"?\n(Though I gather that these days fanfic starts before a\nshow even finishes its run...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would argue that William Shatner's _Star Trek_ novels\nare blatant fanfic. Mary Sue fanfic, at that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I would argue that Shatner probably agrees with you;\nremember his line in the Shatner-vs-Shatner fight scene in\nthe last TOS movie:\n\n\tShatner 1: I can't believe I _kissed_ you.\n\tShatner 2: It must have been your lifelong ambition.\n\nWhatever else Shatner may be, he is aware of his ego \"problem\"\nand not afraid to have fun with it. (See also \"Free Enterprise.\")\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2001-06-19T22:59:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Fan fic? Fooey.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 1:38 PM -0400 6/19/01, Kevin J. Maroney wrote:\nAt 09:10 AM 6/19/01 -0700, Blattid wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The term is specific, refers to the parasitic" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not that we're loading up with judgmental terms here, no, no." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "creation of new stories in a _fictional_ world _created by\nsome other person or corporate entity_, on an amateur or\nnot-for-profit basis, and usually (but not always) quite\n_bad_. The best-known, if not actually dominant, forms,\nare the [erotic|pornographic] \"slash\" fiction* and the\nMaryJane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Mary Sue\".\n\nBut your basic point is right; whatever Hoof and Hide are doing, \nit's not \"fanfic\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For all of those who were as puzzled as I at this reference to Mary \nSue, here is a useful definition:\n\n\n\nIf this link doesn't work then search for \"Mary Sue fan fiction\" on Google.\n\nNow I really, really don't want to offend anyone, but I feel \ncompelled to make a comment here. I have been reading SF/F for over \n35 years now but I have always kept my distance from any \"fannish\" \nactivities. I always found that whole world fascinating but vaguely \nrepellant and frightening.\n\nAfter glancing over a few fan fiction web sites on my search for Mary \nSue that feeling has greatly intensified, especially the fear. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-06-20T08:23:45+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Fan fic? Fooey.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "William Ansley wrote:\n... I have been reading SF/F for over 35 years now but I have\nalways kept my distance from any \"fannish\" activities. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "William, William, William... I don't know how to tell you this, \nbut this list is a fannish activity, or, as they used to say \n-- do they still? -- \"fanac.\" \n\nGranted, it's the kind of fanac that isn't usually referred to \nas \"fannish,\" but only because within fandom \"fannish\" was (is?)\ngenerally used in contrast to \"sercon,\" short for \"serious and \nconstructive,\" where \"fannish\" was more the \"partying with a few\nthousand of your closest friends\" sort of thing.\n\nMuch of the traffic on this list tends toward the sercon, but \nit's all fannish in the larger sense.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2001-06-20T12:15:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Fan fic? Fooey.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:59 PM 6/19/01 -0400, William A wrote:\nFor all of those who were as puzzled as I at this reference to Mary Sue, \nhere is a useful definition:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"A Mary Sue is a character who is smarter than Spock, braver than Kirk, and \nmore compassionate than McCoy, and sleeps with all three.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://www.nyrsf.com\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-06-20T12:37:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Fan fic? Fooey.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Kevin J. Maroney wrote:\nAt 10:59 PM 6/19/01 -0400, William A wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For all of those who were as puzzled as I at this reference to Mary Sue, \nhere is a useful definition:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"A Mary Sue is a character who is smarter than Spock, braver than Kirk, and \nmore compassionate than McCoy, and sleeps with all three.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And isn't a Mary Sue generally thought to be the author's fantasy-self? \nIsn't that a major part of the ickyness of it: watching the author imagine\nherself a terrific-in-every-way character in an existing universe?\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2001-06-20T23:41:40+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Fan fic? Fooey.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 8:23 AM -0700 6/20/01, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWilliam Ansley wrote:\n\n > ... I have been reading SF/F for over 35 years now but I have\n > always kept my distance from any \"fannish\" activities.\n\nWilliam, William, William... I don't know how to tell you this,\nbut this list is a fannish activity, or, as they used to say\n-- do they still? -- \"fanac.\"\n\nGranted, it's the kind of fanac that isn't usually referred to\nas \"fannish,\" but only because within fandom \"fannish\" was (is?)\ngenerally used in contrast to \"sercon,\" short for \"serious and\nconstructive,\" where \"fannish\" was more the \"partying with a few\nthousand of your closest friends\" sort of thing.\n\nMuch of the traffic on this list tends toward the sercon, but\nit's all fannish in the larger sense.\n\n--Blattid" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know, it did occur to me that such a reply might greet my message \nand I agree with it. I should have said \"... I have for, the most \npart, kept my distance from any 'fannish' activities.\" But I do have \nthree things to say in response.\n\n-As you note, this list is really not what I meant by \"fannish.\" I \ncertainly am not familiar with the jargon of fandom you keep tossing \nabout.\n\n-Aside from this discussion list, which I won't deny has suffered \nfrom a great deal of my turgid prose, and some postings to \nrec.arts.sf-lovers, oh, ever so long ago, I *have* avoided any \nfannish activities, aside from reading way too much SF/F and watching \na relatively few movies and tv shows.\n\n-There have been a few postings to this list which have struck me as \nvaguely repellant and frightening. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }