{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1452", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1452, "subject": "Fan fic Fooey? Fooey.", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-06-19T20:51:05+00:00", "last": "2001-06-20T21:47:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-06-19T20:51:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Fan fic Fooey? Fooey.", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 6/19/01 4:10 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes at ddanehy at siebel.com wrote:\nOr pfui. With all due respect to the various people who've\nused this term, I'm just about apoplectic from not shouting\nat you about it, and now I will." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It wasn't originally my term, and it wasn't a term I would have applied on\nmy own. And I agree the sections aren't literally fanfic. But mantis used\nthe term, iirc, to indicate\n\n1) That the third-person sections are fictional, at least in part; and\n\n2) That the motive of the fictionizers is to fill in emotionally satisfying\nbits absent from the original narrative.\n\nThe former of these is true, I would argue (see below) and the latter seems\nlikely to be at least partially true for the conversation with Remora, and\nmay well be true of the Whorl material." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Look. Whatever _tBotSS_ is (or the editors-written third-\nperson parts of it, or even \"selected bits\" of those), it\nain't fanfic. The term is specific, refers to the parasitic\ncreation of new stories in a _fictional_ world _created by\nsome other person or corporate entity_, on an amateur or\nnot-for-profit basis, and usually (but not always) quite\n_bad_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As a matter of fact, on the website I cited earlier for Pullman fanfic,\nthere is quite a lot of fanfic dealing with real people, namely music groups\n(the vast majority of it on boy bands: there are over five thousand Nsync\nfanfics)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The best-known, if not actually dominant, forms,\nare the [erotic|pornographic] \"slash\" fiction* and the\nMaryJane." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Slash\" isn't necessarily pornographic or erotica. It posits a romantic or\nsexual relationship between two characters of the same sex, but need not\ndepict sex." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "* The concept of / fiction in the Lupiverse has its own\npeculiar horrors to offer. Severian/Severian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If there were Lupine slash, I'd lay odds that the most popular relationship\nwould be Horn/Krait." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What makes the concept ludicrous is this: Who is the\nfan writing the fanfic? Not Wolfe, certainly; he's the\ncreator of all this. Not the editorial kids; what comes\nfrom them isn't fiction -- it's either reconstruction\nor outright lies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are those novels dealing with historical figures, which don't contradict the\nhistorical record but which invent situations and conversations not\nappearing in the record, outright lies? True, the editors did not present\ntheir third-person sections as fiction, and to that extent they are lying,\nat least by implication. But functionally, I would argue that the sections\nare fiction, and should be read as fiction, with a protagonist who is\ndistinct from Narr, but based on the editors' view of Narr.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-06-20T08:40:54+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Fan fic Fooey? Fooey.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I agree the sections aren't literally fanfic. But mantis used\nthe term, iirc, to indicate\n\n1) That the third-person sections are fictional, at least in part;\nand\n\n2) That the motive of the fictionizers is to fill in emotionally\nsatisfying bits absent from the original narrative.\n\nThe former of these is true, I would argue " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stipulated: within the completely fictional universe of discourse,\nthe third-person narrative sections of RttW are fictional(ized)\naccounts of the activities of the Narrator Formerly Known as Horn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(see below) and the latter seems likely to be at least partially\ntrue for the conversation with Remora, and may well be true of\nthe Whorl material." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also stipulated: the claimed motives of fictional editors is to\nround out the incompleted narrative of the Narrator Latterly \nKnown as Silk. Further stipulated: this is at least a part of \ntheir actual motivation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As a matter of fact, on the website I cited earlier for\nPullman fanfic, there is quite a lot of fanfic dealing with\nreal people, namely music groups (the vast majority of it on\nboy bands: there are over five thousand Nsync fanfics)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what the correct term for this stuff is, but it's\ndifferent from fanfic as known in the world of SF fandom. I\nsuspect it might be actionable in a larger sense than copyright\nor trademark violation -- not clear if it would actually be\nconsidered libellous, but certianly it doesn't qualify as \nprotected, either as reportage, as \"satire or parody,\" or \nunder any other protection I can think of. Okay, I'm not a\nlibel lawyer, but there's a _reason_ for all those \"no \nresemblance to any person living or dead\" disclaimers you read \nin the front of books, and there's no way any of those Nsync\nfans could claim that their fictional characters bore no \nresemblance to the real bandmembers. Oy, whatever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Slash\" isn't necessarily pornographic or erotica. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe now. It was originally. (Sorry; old fart speaking\nhere. I'm remembering the antediluvian 1970s and early \nstuff like \"The Rising.\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If there were Lupine slash, I'd lay odds that the\nmost popular relationship would be Horn/Krait." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Duh. Should of thought of that one myself. Or maybe\nSilk/Horn, though it would be hard to locate that\nin the received chronology... Maybe Jolenta/Dorcas..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are those novels dealing with historical figures, which\ndon't contradict the historical record but which invent\nsituations and conversations not appearing in the record,\noutright lies? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All fiction is lies ;*P\n\nMore seriously: if well-done, such a piece can be _true_\neven though not _factual_. If presented as fact, it's a lie;\nif presented as a fictional reconstruction, it's not a lie.\n\nAnd that gives the editors a kind of out: since they did go\nto the trouble of inserting -- no, not a disclaimer, just an\nexplanation of what they did -- it's a non-lying fictional\nreconstruction.\n\nExcept, perhaps, for that interlude in the conversation with \nRemora: as others have noted, there is no plausible way for \nthe editors to have done anything but make it up from whole\ncloth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But functionally, I would argue that the sections are fiction,\nand should be read as fiction, with a protagonist who is\ndistinct from Narr, but based on the editors' view of Narr." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Functionally, I would disagree strongly. By interspersing their\nreconstructions with the Narr's manuscript, I feel that they've\nimplicitly claimed for it a status of equivalent facticity, to \nwhich it is not entitled. Which drags me back to the Gospel\nAccording to Luke... but I'll let that one swing.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2001-06-20T12:14:00+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Fan fic Fooey? Fooey.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 08:40 AM 6/20/01 -0700, Blattid wrote:\nAs a matter of fact, on the website I cited earlier for\nPullman fanfic, there is quite a lot of fanfic dealing with\nreal people, namely music groups (the vast majority of it on\nboy bands: there are over five thousand Nsync fanfics)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure what the correct term for this stuff is, but it's\ndifferent from fanfic as known in the world of SF fandom." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. It's different from the core fanfic of the early Trek \nfandom, but everything and everyone gets pulled into the broader sweeps of \nfanfic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Duh. Should of thought of that one myself. Or maybe\nSilk/Horn, though it would be hard to locate that\nin the received chronology... Maybe Jolenta/Dorcas..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Jolenta/Dorcas is just off-stage, so it would seem obvious....\n\nI'm trying to think of the most appalling possible New Sun fanfic. Father \nInire and the mandrake? Little Severian and Typhon? Thecla and an avern? \nThe Green Man and Master Ash could actually be pretty cool." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://www.nyrsf.com\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-06-20T21:47:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Fan fic Fooey? Fooey.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 6/20/01 11:14 AM, Kevin J. Maroney at kmaroney at ungames.com wrote:\nI'm trying to think of the most appalling possible New Sun fanfic. Father\nInire and the mandrake? Little Severian and Typhon? Thecla and an avern?\nThe Green Man and Master Ash could actually be pretty cool." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A New Sun/Sailor Moon crossover.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }