{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1454", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1454, "subject": "mantis on TBOTSS and fanfic", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-06-20T17:26:37+00:00", "last": "2001-06-21T11:33:16+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2001-06-20T17:26:37+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) mantis on TBOTSS and fanfic", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hoo, boy.\n\nLook here. I mean it!\n\n1) TBOTLS is revealed near the end to have been written by Horn.\n\n2) TBOTSS starts off with some revision to that--it wasn't just Horn, but\nHorn and his wife Nettle. There is also talk about the trials of\npublishing, from making the paper on up to the writing of the text in each\nbook. TBOTSS is presumably being written by the narrator Horn alone this\ntime, since Nettle is staying at home. Now it will be 100% Horn.\n\n3) Deep into OBW (TBOTSS vol. 1) it is revealed that there are some editors\ninvolved.\n\n4) Toward the end of TBOTSS it is revealed that the narrator wasn't so much\nHorn writing about Horn's adventure as it was Silk writing about Horn's\nadventure in absence of Horn (a switch on the situation in TBOTLS, where it\nwas \"Horn\" [Horn/Nettle] writing about Silk's adventure in the absence of\nSilk). Then Silk leaves Blue and Nettle leaves, too.\n\n5) Toward the end of TBOTSS it is revealed that some chapters were not\nwritten by the narrator Horn, and that these chapters were cobbled together\nby the editors (all born on Blue; two of them, Hoof and Hide, raised\non/with/through TBOTLS).\n\n\nNow then, the editors Hoof and Hide. They are intimately connected to\nTBOTLS, but not as primary creators. They are immersed in the matter; it\nis in their mother's milk, if you like. They are so steeped in the stuff\nthat I liken them to \"fans,\" even though they did not voluntarily get into\nit (and fandom is voluntary, ain't it?). Because of their unique position,\nthey are compelled to step up to the bat and take a wack at completing the\nmanuscript--and they do.\n\nWhen H & H write about The Whorl, we know fully that they have never been\nthere themselves, but ah--they =have= been there through the text of\nTBOTLS, just as we fans have. So again, H & H are equal to us readers in\nnot knowing The Whorl at first hand and not knowing Silk at first hand.\n\nSo the writing by H & H, while buttressed by interviews, snatches of\nconversation, and editorial consensus, amounts to a patch written by fans,\nwhich is rather like a fan fiction in the broad sense (rather than the\nspecific sense of \"slash\" or \"Mary Sue\"). Now their wives are not likely\nto be as steeped as the twins are, but they nonetheless have an influence\non the shaping of TBOTSS, and since they don't have so many memories of the\npeople involved, their source of inspiration will be TBOTLS.\n\nTBOTSS is, therefore, part secondary creation--again, rather like fanfic in\nthe broad sense. It is largely based upon characters and settings depicted\nin TBOTLS. Neither Horn, nor Nettle, nor even Silk is around to help them\nin this: nobody involved in the primary creation (TBOTLS) is available.\nAll they have is their memory and the text of TBOTLS.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nHas Moved To\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Spectacled Bear", "address": "spectacled.bear at pobox.com" }, "date": "2001-06-21T08:10:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) mantis on TBOTSS and fanfic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 01:26 2001-06-21, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"slash\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's one of history's great lost opportunities that the inventor\nof this phrase didn't use one of the other names for the oblique\ncharacter, \"stroke\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sirius Fiction\nHas Moved To\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What are the relations, if any, among www.sirius.com, www.siriusfiction.com,\nwww.siriusbooks.com (whose web site shows only a CGI directory, inaccessible),\nwww.sirius-books.com, and the Sirius Book Company who published some of Keith\nRoberts' work?\n\nSpectacled Bear.\n\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2001-06-21T11:33:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) mantis on TBOTSS and fanfic", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 05:26 PM 6/20/01 -0700, Mantis wrote:\nSo the writing by H & H, while buttressed by interviews, snatches of\nconversation, and editorial consensus, amounts to a patch written by fans,\nwhich is rather like a fan fiction in the broad sense (rather than the\nspecific sense of \"slash\" or \"Mary Sue\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Fanfic\" is not the same thing as \"fiction written by fans\"; \"fan\" is not \nthe same thing as \"admirer of\"; \"biography\" is not the same as \"fiction\"." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Kevin Maroney | Unplugged Games\n kmaroney at ungames.com | (212) 777-1190\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }