{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1455", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1455, "subject": "Fan fic Fooey? Fooey", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2001-06-20T21:46:58+00:00", "last": "2001-06-21T11:36:50+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-06-20T21:46:58+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Fan fic Fooey? Fooey", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOkay, I'm not a\nlibel lawyer, but there's a _reason_ for all those \"no\nresemblance to any person living or dead\" disclaimers you read\nin the front of books, and there's no way any of those Nsync\nfans could claim that their fictional characters bore no\nresemblance to the real bandmembers. Oy, whatever." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just as a digression, I've always wondered whether those really do any good.\nA lot of books with such disclaimers contain charaters whose \"resemblance to\npersons living or dead\" is more than coincidental; and in the one case I've\nheard of in which an author was sued for libel and lost for her portrayal of\na fictional character, I'd bet that the disclaimer was there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If there were Lupine slash, I'd lay odds that the\nmost popular relationship would be Horn/Krait." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Duh. Should of thought of that one myself. Or maybe\nSilk/Horn, though it would be hard to locate that\nin the received chronology... Maybe Jolenta/Dorcas..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought of that last one, but m/m seems to be a lot more popular than f/f." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But functionally, I would argue that the sections are fiction,\nand should be read as fiction, with a protagonist who is\ndistinct from Narr, but based on the editors' view of Narr." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Functionally, I would disagree strongly. By interspersing their\nreconstructions with the Narr's manuscript, I feel that they've\nimplicitly claimed for it a status of equivalent facticity, to\nwhich it is not entitled. Which drags me back to the Gospel\nAccording to Luke... but I'll let that one swing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, \"functionally\" was not a very good choice of word (I'm not sure now\nwhy I used it). I agree that the narrators implicitly claim for their\nthird-person sections equivalent facticity to the Narr's manuscript (or more\nso, since it's third-person, and occasionally shows us stuff the Narr\napparently did not witness). What I was trying to say was that once we\nrealize that the third-person sections do not have this status, the best way\nfor us, the readers, to regard them is as a fiction.\n\nWhether or not you want to say the editors are lying depends upon how\nloosely you're willing to let them apply the term \"re-created.\"\n\n(To return to the Biblical analogy for a second, I note that contemporary\nscholars are reluctant to say that the authors of apocryphal texts, or texts\nin the Bible believed not to be by their supposed authors, were lying or\ncommitting fraud in claiming false authorship. They usually take the stand\nthat this was a convention of the time, to sign some holy person's name to\nyour text as a way of claiming authority for it. To go even further afield,\nit occurs to me to wonder if there is any evidence that people of the time\nsaw things that way--that the attributed author was merely a convention,\nmaking no claim about the real author.)\n\n--Adam\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kmaroney at ungames.com" }, "date": "2001-06-21T11:36:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Fan fic Fooey? Fooey", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:46 PM 6/20/01 -0500, Adam wrote:\nTo go even further afield,\nit occurs to me to wonder if there is any evidence that people of the time\nsaw things that way--that the attributed author was merely a convention,\nmaking no claim about the real author.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In my classical readings, I've come across references to pseudipigraphia \nwhich are outside of the Jewish and Christian traditions--much later works \nattributed to Virgil and suchlike. Heck, think of Plato--he wrote dozens of \nbooks which put his own thoughts in the mouth of Sophocles." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://www.nyrsf.com\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-06-21T09:19:32+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Re: Fan fic Fooey? Fooey", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my classical readings, I've come across references to\npseudipigraphia which are outside of the Jewish and Christian\ntraditions--much later works attributed to Virgil and suchlike. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep. And the idea persists in the Christian tradition well beyond\nthe time of the apostles: an excellent example being a set of\nworks which were probably by a Syrian monk in the 5th or 6th \ncentury, but widely accepted for a long time as the work of \nDionysius the Areopagite (a guy who Paul converted in Acts), \nand were so important in the development of theology that they're \nstill in circulation (as the \"work of Pseudo-Dionysius\")." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heck, think of Plato--he wrote dozens of books which put his\nown thoughts in the mouth of Sophocles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. No way I'm touching this one. Uh-uh.\n\n--Dan'l\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2001-06-21T09:49:41+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) Re: Fan fic Fooey? Fooey", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Heck, think of Plato--he wrote dozens of books\nwhich put his\nown thoughts in the mouth of Sophocles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. No way I'm touching this one. Uh-uh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You could at least say \"Socrates\" safely.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-06-21T11:31:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) Re: Fan fic Fooey? Fooey", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 6/21/01 10:36 AM, Kevin J. Maroney at kmaroney at ungames.com wrote:\nIn my classical readings, I've come across references to pseudipigraphia\nwhich are outside of the Jewish and Christian traditions--much later works\nattributed to Virgil and suchlike." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sure there are; but my question applies to these too. Did people of the\ntime regard these attributions as merely a convention? Or were they fooled\ninto thinking they were reading works by the real Virgil? Or, whether or\nnot they were fooled, did they believe that the author meant them to think\nthat these works were written by the real Virgil?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heck, think of Plato--he wrote dozens of\nbooks which put his own thoughts in the mouth of Sophocles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean Socrates, obviously.\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }