{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1458", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1458, "subject": "Digest whorl.v012.n146", "messages": 2, "voices": 1, "first": "2001-06-21T13:41:53+00:00", "last": "2001-06-21T13:41:53+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Levitan", "address": "josh_levitan at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2001-06-21T13:41:53+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n146", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \nTo: \nSent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 8:34 AM\nSubject: Digest whorl.v012.n146\n\n-------------- BEGIN whorl.v012.n146 --------------\n\n 001 - \"Kevin J. Maroney\" \nSubject: RE: (whorl) Fan fic Fooey? Fooey.\nDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:14:00 -0400\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"; format=flowed\nIn-Reply-To: <200106201542.f5KFgM551707 at lists1.ba.best.com>\n\nAt 08:40 AM 6/20/01 -0700, Blattid wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "As a matter of fact, on the website I cited earlier for\nPullman fanfic, there is quite a lot of fanfic dealing with\nreal people, namely music groups (the vast majority of it on\nboy bands: there are over five thousand Nsync fanfics)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure what the correct term for this stuff is, but it's\ndifferent from fanfic as known in the world of SF fandom." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think so. It's different from the core fanfic of the early Trek\nfandom, but everything and everyone gets pulled into the broader sweeps of\nfanfic.\n\n >Duh. Should of thought of that one myself. Or maybe\nSilk/Horn, though it would be hard to locate that\nin the received chronology... Maybe Jolenta/Dorcas...\n\nWell, Jolenta/Dorcas is just off-stage, so it would seem obvious....\n\nI'm trying to think of the most appalling possible New Sun fanfic. Father\nInire and the mandrake? Little Severian and Typhon? Thecla and an avern?\nThe Green Man and Master Ash could actually be pretty cool.\n\n--\nWombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://www.nyrsf.com\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.2 ---------------\n\nFrom: \"Kevin J. Maroney\" \nSubject: Re: (whorl) Fan fic? Fooey.\nDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:15:02 -0400\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"; format=flowed\nReferences: <200106191739.f5JHdeG37910 at lists1.ba.best.com>\n <200106191739.f5JHdeG37910 at lists1.ba.best.com>\nIn-Reply-To: <200106200300.f5K30pO45116 at lists1.ba.best.com>\n\nAt 10:59 PM 6/19/01 -0400, William A wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For all of those who were as puzzled as I at this reference to Mary Sue,\nhere is a useful definition:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"A Mary Sue is a character who is smarter than Spock, braver than Kirk,\nand\nmore compassionate than McCoy, and sleeps with all three.\"\n\n--\nWombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://www.nyrsf.com\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.3 ---------------\n\nFrom: Michael Straight \nSubject: Re: (whorl) Fan fic? Fooey.\nDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:37:01 -0400 (EDT)\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII\nIn-Reply-To: <200106201615.f5KGFrF51944 at lists1.ba.best.com>\n\nOn Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Kevin J. Maroney wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 10:59 PM 6/19/01 -0400, William A wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "For all of those who were as puzzled as I at this reference to Mary\nSue,\nhere is a useful definition:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"A Mary Sue is a character who is smarter than Spock, braver than Kirk,\nand\nmore compassionate than McCoy, and sleeps with all three.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And isn't a Mary Sue generally thought to be the author's fantasy-self?\nIsn't that a major part of the ickyness of it: watching the author imagine\nherself a terrific-in-every-way character in an existing universe?\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.4 ---------------\n\nFrom: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nSubject: Fooey, fooey, oh, baybee, say me gotta go now...\nDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:38:09 -0700\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain;\n charset=iso-8859-1\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\n\nMe:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm not sure what the correct term for this stuff is, but it's\ndifferent from fanfic as known in the world of SF fandom." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wombat:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think so. It's different from the core fanfic of the\nearly Trek fandom, but everything and everyone gets pulled into\nthe broader sweeps of fanfic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wellll, as I said, I sort of come from a mid-'70s headset about\nall this stuff. Been there, wrote the story, sold it to Forry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm trying to think of the most appalling possible New Sun\nfanfic. Father Inire and the mandrake? Little Severian and\nTyphon? Thecla and an avern? The Green Man and Master Ash\ncould actually be pretty cool." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Howzabout \"Journeyman Torturer Mary Sue?\" Smarter than\nSeverian, prettier than Barbatus, stronger than Baldanders,\ngets to torture them all...\n\n--Blatt!d\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.5 ---------------\n\nFrom: Michael Andre-Driussi \nSubject: (whorl) mantis on TBOTSS and fanfic\nDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:26:37 -0700\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\nHoo, boy.\n\nLook here. I mean it!\n\n1) TBOTLS is revealed near the end to have been written by Horn.\n\n2) TBOTSS starts off with some revision to that--it wasn't just Horn, but\nHorn and his wife Nettle. There is also talk about the trials of\npublishing, from making the paper on up to the writing of the text in\neach\nbook. TBOTSS is presumably being written by the narrator Horn alone this\ntime, since Nettle is staying at home. Now it will be 100% Horn.\n\n3) Deep into OBW (TBOTSS vol. 1) it is revealed that there are some\neditors\ninvolved.\n\n4) Toward the end of TBOTSS it is revealed that the narrator wasn't so\nmuch\nHorn writing about Horn's adventure as it was Silk writing about Horn's\nadventure in absence of Horn (a switch on the situation in TBOTLS, where\nit\nwas \"Horn\" [Horn/Nettle] writing about Silk's adventure in the absence of\nSilk). Then Silk leaves Blue and Nettle leaves, too.\n\n5) Toward the end of TBOTSS it is revealed that some chapters were not\nwritten by the narrator Horn, and that these chapters were cobbled\ntogether\nby the editors (all born on Blue; two of them, Hoof and Hide, raised\non/with/through TBOTLS).\n\n\nNow then, the editors Hoof and Hide. They are intimately connected to\nTBOTLS, but not as primary creators. They are immersed in the matter; it\nis in their mother's milk, if you like. They are so steeped in the stuff\nthat I liken them to \"fans,\" even though they did not voluntarily get into\nit (and fandom is voluntary, ain't it?). Because of their unique\nposition,\nthey are compelled to step up to the bat and take a wack at completing the\nmanuscript--and they do.\n\nWhen H & H write about The Whorl, we know fully that they have never been\nthere themselves, but ah--they =have= been there through the text of\nTBOTLS, just as we fans have. So again, H & H are equal to us readers in\nnot knowing The Whorl at first hand and not knowing Silk at first hand.\n\nSo the writing by H & H, while buttressed by interviews, snatches of\nconversation, and editorial consensus, amounts to a patch written by fans,\nwhich is rather like a fan fiction in the broad sense (rather than the\nspecific sense of \"slash\" or \"Mary Sue\"). Now their wives are not likely\nto be as steeped as the twins are, but they nonetheless have an influence\non the shaping of TBOTSS, and since they don't have so many memories of\nthe\npeople involved, their source of inspiration will be TBOTLS.\n\nTBOTSS is, therefore, part secondary creation--again, rather like fanfic\nin\nthe broad sense. It is largely based upon characters and settings\ndepicted\nin TBOTLS. Neither Horn, nor Nettle, nor even Silk is around to help them\nin this: nobody involved in the primary creation (TBOTLS) is available.\nAll they have is their memory and the text of TBOTLS.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nHas Moved To\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/\n\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.6 ---------------\n\nFrom: Adam Stephanides \nSubject: Re: Fan fic Fooey? Fooey\nDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:46:58 -0500\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"US-ASCII\"\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay, I'm not a\nlibel lawyer, but there's a _reason_ for all those \"no\nresemblance to any person living or dead\" disclaimers you read\nin the front of books, and there's no way any of those Nsync\nfans could claim that their fictional characters bore no\nresemblance to the real bandmembers. Oy, whatever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just as a digression, I've always wondered whether those really do any\ngood.\nA lot of books with such disclaimers contain charaters whose \"resemblance\nto\npersons living or dead\" is more than coincidental; and in the one case\nI've\nheard of in which an author was sued for libel and lost for her portrayal\nof\na fictional character, I'd bet that the disclaimer was there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If there were Lupine slash, I'd lay odds that the\nmost popular relationship would be Horn/Krait." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Duh. Should of thought of that one myself. Or maybe\nSilk/Horn, though it would be hard to locate that\nin the received chronology... Maybe Jolenta/Dorcas..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought of that last one, but m/m seems to be a lot more popular than\nf/f." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But functionally, I would argue that the sections are fiction,\nand should be read as fiction, with a protagonist who is\ndistinct from Narr, but based on the editors' view of Narr." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Functionally, I would disagree strongly. By interspersing their\nreconstructions with the Narr's manuscript, I feel that they've\nimplicitly claimed for it a status of equivalent facticity, to\nwhich it is not entitled. Which drags me back to the Gospel\nAccording to Luke... but I'll let that one swing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, \"functionally\" was not a very good choice of word (I'm not sure now\nwhy I used it). I agree that the narrators implicitly claim for their\nthird-person sections equivalent facticity to the Narr's manuscript (or\nmore\nso, since it's third-person, and occasionally shows us stuff the Narr\napparently did not witness). What I was trying to say was that once we\nrealize that the third-person sections do not have this status, the best\nway\nfor us, the readers, to regard them is as a fiction.\n\nWhether or not you want to say the editors are lying depends upon how\nloosely you're willing to let them apply the term \"re-created.\"\n\n(To return to the Biblical analogy for a second, I note that contemporary\nscholars are reluctant to say that the authors of apocryphal texts, or\ntexts\nin the Bible believed not to be by their supposed authors, were lying or\ncommitting fraud in claiming false authorship. They usually take the\nstand\nthat this was a convention of the time, to sign some holy person's name to\nyour text as a way of claiming authority for it. To go even further\nafield,\nit occurs to me to wonder if there is any evidence that people of the time\nsaw things that way--that the attributed author was merely a convention,\nmaking no claim about the real author.)\n\n--Adam\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.7 ---------------\n\nFrom: Adam Stephanides \nSubject: Re: (whorl) Fan fic Fooey? Fooey.\nDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:47:00 -0500\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"US-ASCII\"\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\nIn-Reply-To: <200106201614.f5KGEpg51930 at lists1.ba.best.com>\n\non 6/20/01 11:14 AM, Kevin J. Maroney at kmaroney at ungames.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm trying to think of the most appalling possible New Sun fanfic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Father" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Inire and the mandrake? Little Severian and Typhon? Thecla and an avern?\nThe Green Man and Master Ash could actually be pretty cool." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A New Sun/Sailor Moon crossover.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.8 ---------------\n\nFrom: William Ansley \nSubject: RE: (whorl) Fan fic? Fooey.\nDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 23:41:40 -0400\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT\nReferences: <200106201525.f5KFP8151599 at lists1.ba.best.com>\nIn-Reply-To: <200106201525.f5KFP8151599 at lists1.ba.best.com>\n\nAt 8:23 AM -0700 6/20/01, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "William Ansley wrote:\n\n > ... I have been reading SF/F for over 35 years now but I have\n > always kept my distance from any \"fannish\" activities.\n\nWilliam, William, William... I don't know how to tell you this,\nbut this list is a fannish activity, or, as they used to say\n-- do they still? -- \"fanac.\"\n\nGranted, it's the kind of fanac that isn't usually referred to\nas \"fannish,\" but only because within fandom \"fannish\" was (is?)\ngenerally used in contrast to \"sercon,\" short for \"serious and\nconstructive,\" where \"fannish\" was more the \"partying with a few\nthousand of your closest friends\" sort of thing.\n\nMuch of the traffic on this list tends toward the sercon, but\nit's all fannish in the larger sense.\n\n--Blattid" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You know, it did occur to me that such a reply might greet my message\nand I agree with it. I should have said \"... I have for, the most\npart, kept my distance from any 'fannish' activities.\" But I do have\nthree things to say in response.\n\n-As you note, this list is really not what I meant by \"fannish.\" I\ncertainly am not familiar with the jargon of fandom you keep tossing\nabout.\n\n-Aside from this discussion list, which I won't deny has suffered\nfrom a great deal of my turgid prose, and some postings to\nrec.arts.sf-lovers, oh, ever so long ago, I *have* avoided any\nfannish activities, aside from reading way too much SF/F and watching\na relatively few movies and tv shows.\n\n-There have been a few postings to this list which have struck me as\nvaguely repellant and frightening. \n\n--\nWilliam Ansley\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.9 ---------------\n\nFrom: Spectacled Bear \nSubject: Re: (whorl) mantis on TBOTSS and fanfic\nDate: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:10:27 +0100\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\nIn-Reply-To: <200106210026.f5L0QKB56470 at lists1.ba.best.com>\n\nAt 01:26 2001-06-21, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"slash\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's one of history's great lost opportunities that the inventor\nof this phrase didn't use one of the other names for the oblique\ncharacter, \"stroke\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sirius Fiction\nHas Moved To\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What are the relations, if any, among www.sirius.com,\nwww.siriusfiction.com,\nwww.siriusbooks.com (whose web site shows only a CGI directory,\ninaccessible),\nwww.sirius-books.com, and the Sirius Book Company who published some of\nKeith\nRoberts' work?\n\nSpectacled Bear.\n\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.10 ---------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Kevin J. Maroney wrote:\n\nAt 05:26 PM 6/20/01 -0700, Mantis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So the writing by H & H, while buttressed by interviews, snatches of\nconversation, and editorial consensus, amounts to a patch written by\nfans,\nwhich is rather like a fan fiction in the broad sense (rather than the\nspecific sense of \"slash\" or \"Mary Sue\")." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Fanfic\" is not the same thing as \"fiction written by fans\"; \"fan\" is not\nthe same thing as \"admirer of\"; \"biography\" is not the same as \"fiction\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While TBOTSS is not wholly written by its \"author,\" it shouldn't be\nconsidered fan fic. Unless you consider works like Kafka's \"The Trial\" to\nbe fan fiction. Or a celebrity \"auto\"biography that's ghostwritten, for\nexample. I think those are more analogous than what's generally regarded as\nfan fiction. It's more a case of the editors wanting to flesh something out,\nand, in the absence of the original author (for many bizarre reasons), they\ndo it themselves.\n\nNarwhal\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Levitan", "address": "josh_levitan at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2001-06-21T13:41:53+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) Re: Digest whorl.v012.n146", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \nTo: \nSent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 8:34 AM\nSubject: Digest whorl.v012.n146\n\n-------------- BEGIN whorl.v012.n146 --------------\n\n 001 - \"Kevin J. Maroney\" \nSubject: RE: (whorl) Fan fic Fooey? Fooey.\nDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:14:00 -0400\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"; format=flowed\nIn-Reply-To: <200106201542.f5KFgM551707 at lists1.ba.best.com>\n\nAt 08:40 AM 6/20/01 -0700, Blattid wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "As a matter of fact, on the website I cited earlier for\nPullman fanfic, there is quite a lot of fanfic dealing with\nreal people, namely music groups (the vast majority of it on\nboy bands: there are over five thousand Nsync fanfics)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure what the correct term for this stuff is, but it's\ndifferent from fanfic as known in the world of SF fandom." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think so. It's different from the core fanfic of the early Trek\nfandom, but everything and everyone gets pulled into the broader sweeps of\nfanfic.\n\n >Duh. Should of thought of that one myself. Or maybe\nSilk/Horn, though it would be hard to locate that\nin the received chronology... Maybe Jolenta/Dorcas...\n\nWell, Jolenta/Dorcas is just off-stage, so it would seem obvious....\n\nI'm trying to think of the most appalling possible New Sun fanfic. Father\nInire and the mandrake? Little Severian and Typhon? Thecla and an avern?\nThe Green Man and Master Ash could actually be pretty cool.\n\n--\nWombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://www.nyrsf.com\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.2 ---------------\n\nFrom: \"Kevin J. Maroney\" \nSubject: Re: (whorl) Fan fic? Fooey.\nDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:15:02 -0400\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"; format=flowed\nReferences: <200106191739.f5JHdeG37910 at lists1.ba.best.com>\n <200106191739.f5JHdeG37910 at lists1.ba.best.com>\nIn-Reply-To: <200106200300.f5K30pO45116 at lists1.ba.best.com>\n\nAt 10:59 PM 6/19/01 -0400, William A wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For all of those who were as puzzled as I at this reference to Mary Sue,\nhere is a useful definition:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"A Mary Sue is a character who is smarter than Spock, braver than Kirk,\nand\nmore compassionate than McCoy, and sleeps with all three.\"\n\n--\nWombat, a.k.a. Kevin Maroney kmaroney at ungames.com\nKitchen Staff Supervisor, New York Review of Science Fiction\nhttp://www.nyrsf.com\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.3 ---------------\n\nFrom: Michael Straight \nSubject: Re: (whorl) Fan fic? Fooey.\nDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:37:01 -0400 (EDT)\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII\nIn-Reply-To: <200106201615.f5KGFrF51944 at lists1.ba.best.com>\n\nOn Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Kevin J. Maroney wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 10:59 PM 6/19/01 -0400, William A wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "For all of those who were as puzzled as I at this reference to Mary\nSue,\nhere is a useful definition:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"A Mary Sue is a character who is smarter than Spock, braver than Kirk,\nand\nmore compassionate than McCoy, and sleeps with all three.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And isn't a Mary Sue generally thought to be the author's fantasy-self?\nIsn't that a major part of the ickyness of it: watching the author imagine\nherself a terrific-in-every-way character in an existing universe?\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.4 ---------------\n\nFrom: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nSubject: Fooey, fooey, oh, baybee, say me gotta go now...\nDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:38:09 -0700\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain;\n charset=iso-8859-1\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\n\nMe:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm not sure what the correct term for this stuff is, but it's\ndifferent from fanfic as known in the world of SF fandom." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wombat:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think so. It's different from the core fanfic of the\nearly Trek fandom, but everything and everyone gets pulled into\nthe broader sweeps of fanfic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wellll, as I said, I sort of come from a mid-'70s headset about\nall this stuff. Been there, wrote the story, sold it to Forry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm trying to think of the most appalling possible New Sun\nfanfic. Father Inire and the mandrake? Little Severian and\nTyphon? Thecla and an avern? The Green Man and Master Ash\ncould actually be pretty cool." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Howzabout \"Journeyman Torturer Mary Sue?\" Smarter than\nSeverian, prettier than Barbatus, stronger than Baldanders,\ngets to torture them all...\n\n--Blatt!d\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.5 ---------------\n\nFrom: Michael Andre-Driussi \nSubject: (whorl) mantis on TBOTSS and fanfic\nDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:26:37 -0700\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\n\nHoo, boy.\n\nLook here. I mean it!\n\n1) TBOTLS is revealed near the end to have been written by Horn.\n\n2) TBOTSS starts off with some revision to that--it wasn't just Horn, but\nHorn and his wife Nettle. There is also talk about the trials of\npublishing, from making the paper on up to the writing of the text in\neach\nbook. TBOTSS is presumably being written by the narrator Horn alone this\ntime, since Nettle is staying at home. Now it will be 100% Horn.\n\n3) Deep into OBW (TBOTSS vol. 1) it is revealed that there are some\neditors\ninvolved.\n\n4) Toward the end of TBOTSS it is revealed that the narrator wasn't so\nmuch\nHorn writing about Horn's adventure as it was Silk writing about Horn's\nadventure in absence of Horn (a switch on the situation in TBOTLS, where\nit\nwas \"Horn\" [Horn/Nettle] writing about Silk's adventure in the absence of\nSilk). Then Silk leaves Blue and Nettle leaves, too.\n\n5) Toward the end of TBOTSS it is revealed that some chapters were not\nwritten by the narrator Horn, and that these chapters were cobbled\ntogether\nby the editors (all born on Blue; two of them, Hoof and Hide, raised\non/with/through TBOTLS).\n\n\nNow then, the editors Hoof and Hide. They are intimately connected to\nTBOTLS, but not as primary creators. They are immersed in the matter; it\nis in their mother's milk, if you like. They are so steeped in the stuff\nthat I liken them to \"fans,\" even though they did not voluntarily get into\nit (and fandom is voluntary, ain't it?). Because of their unique\nposition,\nthey are compelled to step up to the bat and take a wack at completing the\nmanuscript--and they do.\n\nWhen H & H write about The Whorl, we know fully that they have never been\nthere themselves, but ah--they =have= been there through the text of\nTBOTLS, just as we fans have. So again, H & H are equal to us readers in\nnot knowing The Whorl at first hand and not knowing Silk at first hand.\n\nSo the writing by H & H, while buttressed by interviews, snatches of\nconversation, and editorial consensus, amounts to a patch written by fans,\nwhich is rather like a fan fiction in the broad sense (rather than the\nspecific sense of \"slash\" or \"Mary Sue\"). Now their wives are not likely\nto be as steeped as the twins are, but they nonetheless have an influence\non the shaping of TBOTSS, and since they don't have so many memories of\nthe\npeople involved, their source of inspiration will be TBOTLS.\n\nTBOTSS is, therefore, part secondary creation--again, rather like fanfic\nin\nthe broad sense. It is largely based upon characters and settings\ndepicted\nin TBOTLS. Neither Horn, nor Nettle, nor even Silk is around to help them\nin this: nobody involved in the primary creation (TBOTLS) is available.\nAll they have is their memory and the text of TBOTLS.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nHas Moved To\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/\n\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.6 ---------------\n\nFrom: Adam Stephanides \nSubject: Re: Fan fic Fooey? Fooey\nDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:46:58 -0500\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"US-ASCII\"\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay, I'm not a\nlibel lawyer, but there's a _reason_ for all those \"no\nresemblance to any person living or dead\" disclaimers you read\nin the front of books, and there's no way any of those Nsync\nfans could claim that their fictional characters bore no\nresemblance to the real bandmembers. Oy, whatever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just as a digression, I've always wondered whether those really do any\ngood.\nA lot of books with such disclaimers contain charaters whose \"resemblance\nto\npersons living or dead\" is more than coincidental; and in the one case\nI've\nheard of in which an author was sued for libel and lost for her portrayal\nof\na fictional character, I'd bet that the disclaimer was there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If there were Lupine slash, I'd lay odds that the\nmost popular relationship would be Horn/Krait." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Duh. Should of thought of that one myself. Or maybe\nSilk/Horn, though it would be hard to locate that\nin the received chronology... Maybe Jolenta/Dorcas..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought of that last one, but m/m seems to be a lot more popular than\nf/f." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But functionally, I would argue that the sections are fiction,\nand should be read as fiction, with a protagonist who is\ndistinct from Narr, but based on the editors' view of Narr." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Functionally, I would disagree strongly. By interspersing their\nreconstructions with the Narr's manuscript, I feel that they've\nimplicitly claimed for it a status of equivalent facticity, to\nwhich it is not entitled. Which drags me back to the Gospel\nAccording to Luke... but I'll let that one swing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, \"functionally\" was not a very good choice of word (I'm not sure now\nwhy I used it). I agree that the narrators implicitly claim for their\nthird-person sections equivalent facticity to the Narr's manuscript (or\nmore\nso, since it's third-person, and occasionally shows us stuff the Narr\napparently did not witness). What I was trying to say was that once we\nrealize that the third-person sections do not have this status, the best\nway\nfor us, the readers, to regard them is as a fiction.\n\nWhether or not you want to say the editors are lying depends upon how\nloosely you're willing to let them apply the term \"re-created.\"\n\n(To return to the Biblical analogy for a second, I note that contemporary\nscholars are reluctant to say that the authors of apocryphal texts, or\ntexts\nin the Bible believed not to be by their supposed authors, were lying or\ncommitting fraud in claiming false authorship. They usually take the\nstand\nthat this was a convention of the time, to sign some holy person's name to\nyour text as a way of claiming authority for it. To go even further\nafield,\nit occurs to me to wonder if there is any evidence that people of the time\nsaw things that way--that the attributed author was merely a convention,\nmaking no claim about the real author.)\n\n--Adam\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.7 ---------------\n\nFrom: Adam Stephanides \nSubject: Re: (whorl) Fan fic Fooey? Fooey.\nDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:47:00 -0500\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"US-ASCII\"\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\nIn-Reply-To: <200106201614.f5KGEpg51930 at lists1.ba.best.com>\n\non 6/20/01 11:14 AM, Kevin J. Maroney at kmaroney at ungames.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm trying to think of the most appalling possible New Sun fanfic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Father" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Inire and the mandrake? Little Severian and Typhon? Thecla and an avern?\nThe Green Man and Master Ash could actually be pretty cool." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A New Sun/Sailor Moon crossover.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.8 ---------------\n\nFrom: William Ansley \nSubject: RE: (whorl) Fan fic? Fooey.\nDate: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 23:41:40 -0400\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT\nReferences: <200106201525.f5KFP8151599 at lists1.ba.best.com>\nIn-Reply-To: <200106201525.f5KFP8151599 at lists1.ba.best.com>\n\nAt 8:23 AM -0700 6/20/01, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "William Ansley wrote:\n\n > ... I have been reading SF/F for over 35 years now but I have\n > always kept my distance from any \"fannish\" activities.\n\nWilliam, William, William... I don't know how to tell you this,\nbut this list is a fannish activity, or, as they used to say\n-- do they still? -- \"fanac.\"\n\nGranted, it's the kind of fanac that isn't usually referred to\nas \"fannish,\" but only because within fandom \"fannish\" was (is?)\ngenerally used in contrast to \"sercon,\" short for \"serious and\nconstructive,\" where \"fannish\" was more the \"partying with a few\nthousand of your closest friends\" sort of thing.\n\nMuch of the traffic on this list tends toward the sercon, but\nit's all fannish in the larger sense.\n\n--Blattid" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You know, it did occur to me that such a reply might greet my message\nand I agree with it. I should have said \"... I have for, the most\npart, kept my distance from any 'fannish' activities.\" But I do have\nthree things to say in response.\n\n-As you note, this list is really not what I meant by \"fannish.\" I\ncertainly am not familiar with the jargon of fandom you keep tossing\nabout.\n\n-Aside from this discussion list, which I won't deny has suffered\nfrom a great deal of my turgid prose, and some postings to\nrec.arts.sf-lovers, oh, ever so long ago, I *have* avoided any\nfannish activities, aside from reading way too much SF/F and watching\na relatively few movies and tv shows.\n\n-There have been a few postings to this list which have struck me as\nvaguely repellant and frightening. \n\n--\nWilliam Ansley\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.9 ---------------\n\nFrom: Spectacled Bear \nSubject: Re: (whorl) mantis on TBOTSS and fanfic\nDate: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:10:27 +0100\nMIME-Version: 1.0\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"\nIn-Reply-To: <200106210026.f5L0QKB56470 at lists1.ba.best.com>\n\nAt 01:26 2001-06-21, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"slash\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's one of history's great lost opportunities that the inventor\nof this phrase didn't use one of the other names for the oblique\ncharacter, \"stroke\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sirius Fiction\nHas Moved To\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What are the relations, if any, among www.sirius.com,\nwww.siriusfiction.com,\nwww.siriusbooks.com (whose web site shows only a CGI directory,\ninaccessible),\nwww.sirius-books.com, and the Sirius Book Company who published some of\nKeith\nRoberts' work?\n\nSpectacled Bear.\n\n\n\n\n--------------- MESSAGE whorl.v012.n146.10 ---------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Kevin J. Maroney wrote:\n\nAt 05:26 PM 6/20/01 -0700, Mantis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So the writing by H & H, while buttressed by interviews, snatches of\nconversation, and editorial consensus, amounts to a patch written by\nfans,\nwhich is rather like a fan fiction in the broad sense (rather than the\nspecific sense of \"slash\" or \"Mary Sue\")." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Fanfic\" is not the same thing as \"fiction written by fans\"; \"fan\" is not\nthe same thing as \"admirer of\"; \"biography\" is not the same as \"fiction\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While TBOTSS is not wholly written by its \"author,\" it shouldn't be\nconsidered fan fic. Unless you consider works like Kafka's \"The Trial\" to\nbe fan fiction. Or a celebrity \"auto\"biography that's ghostwritten, for\nexample. I think those are more analogous than what's generally regarded as\nfan fiction. It's more a case of the editors wanting to flesh something out,\nand, in the absence of the original author (for many bizarre reasons), they\ndo it themselves.\n\nNarwhal\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] } ] }