{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/whorl/1466", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "whorl", "thread": { "id": 1466, "subject": "First time poster & thoughts on Scylla", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2001-08-01T23:13:08+00:00", "last": "2001-08-03T14:29:26+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peacefrog", "address": "peacefrog4 at crosswinds.net" }, "date": "2001-08-01T23:13:08+00:00", "subject": "(whorl) First time poster & thoughts on Scylla", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi!\n\nI'd just like to introduce myself and start off with the cliche, \"First time\nposter, long time lurker.\"\n\nI noticed there hasn't been much activity on the list for some time now and\nI thought I'd take the opportunity to jump in with an observation. I\nrecently started going back through On Blue's Waters and I noticed something\nthat might help to settle one of the numerous debates that have gone on\nhere.\n\nEarlier this year, there were some who expressed their annoyance with the\nsudden introduction of Scylla-hiding-in-Oreb and thought that the idea\nseemed tacked on and unnecessary in the greater context of the trilogy. I\nwas one of those people. It seemed as if Gene Wolfe was coming out of left\nfield. It didn't really bother me as much as it did to some, but I thought\nit was weak nonetheless.\n\nThen on page 60 of the hardcover edition of OBW, in the middle of the first\nparagraph, it describes Horn's prayer to \"whatever god might hear\" (but\nmostly to the Outsider) that he be given wind for his becalmed sloop. One of\nthe things he promises to the god who grants his wish is that he (Horn) will\n\"do anything in my power to bring them both here if they were not hear\nalready.\" The duo he is referring to are Pas and Scylla.\n\nIn that same scene, Horn expresses his loneliness and isolation in the\nmiddle of the sea. The Outsider cures this condition by sending him a\nvisitor in the form of a giant leatherskin. Is it not possible that the\nOutsider also allows Horn to bring Scylla to Blue just as he promised? In\nthe form of a certain night chough we all know and love?\n\nIt might then be argued that the Pas half of the bargain was also fulfilled\nwhen Passilk came to Blue riding Horn's gray matter. In that light, it makes\nsense to me that Scylla would play such an \"unforeseen\" part in Horn/Silk's\njourneys.\n\nThe Outsider grants the supplications of the somewhat-faithful, but in\nunexpected ways. Kind of like, \"Be careful what you wish for. It might come\ntrue.\"\n\nIf this has already been discussed before, I apologize. I admit that I\nhaven't read all the postings here, but I have read most of them. That's\nall. Hope to see some more activity here soon!\n\n\nPeacefrog\n\"A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.\"\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-08-02T11:20:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: (whorl) First time poster & thoughts on Scylla", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Peacefrog wrote:\nI'd just like to introduce myself and start off with the cliche, \"First time\nposter, long time lurker.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Welcome!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then on page 60 of the hardcover edition of OBW, in the middle of the first\nparagraph, it describes Horn's prayer to \"whatever god might hear\" (but\nmostly to the Outsider) that he be given wind for his becalmed sloop. One of\nthe things he promises to the god who grants his wish is that he (Horn) will\n\"do anything in my power to bring them both here if they were not hear\nalready.\" The duo he is referring to are Pas and Scylla." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good catch. Horn does indeed promise to bring Scylla to Blue. Although\nI'm still unconvinced that Pas made it to blue except inasmuch as \"Pas\" is\nnow partly or mostly Silk. That is, I haven't see any evidence that Pas\never posessed Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's obvious to me that every fish ought to have a bicycle.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-08-02T09:22:33+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) First time poster & thoughts on Scylla", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Welcome Peacefrog." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then on page 60 of the hardcover edition of OBW, in the middle of the\nfirst\nparagraph, it describes Horn's prayer to \"whatever god might hear\" (but\nmostly to the Outsider) that he be given wind for his becalmed sloop. One\nof\nthe things he promises to the god who grants his wish is that he (Horn)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "will" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"do anything in my power to bring them both here if they were not hear\nalready.\" The duo he is referring to are Pas and Scylla." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you. Very well observed; I certainly hadn't noticed the relevance of\nthis apparently throwaway comment. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Outsider grants the supplications of the somewhat-faithful, but in\nunexpected ways. Kind of like, \"Be careful what you wish for. It might\ncome true.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it may be time for another pass through the Books of the [Foo] Sun, \nor at least Short, with the specific goal of observing _everything_ that \n_anyone_ prays for (at least to the Increate a/k/a the Outsider) ... I \nshould not be at all surprised to discover that people invariably get what \nthey pray for (though generally in an unexpected and perhaps difficult-to-\nrecognize form). As a side topic, I should also not be surprised to learn \nthat Horn keeps _every_ promise he makes to anyone along the way. (Again, \ngenerally in an unexpected etc.) \n\nThis also adds fuel to my challenge to those too ready to dismiss SHORT as\ninferior Wolfe. These are challenging and subtle books, and I believe it \nwill be several years before anyone can make any really useful assessment\nof what they are and do (beyond the obvious \"it doesn't yield itself very\nwell to a first reading\"). I think they may prove to be the best work Mr.\nWolfe has done to date." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A friend of mine in Berkeley had a bumper sticker with a lovely picture \nof a fish riding a bicycle. (Far less cartoony than you'd think.) (It \nmay or may not be relevant to know that she was gay.)\n\n--Dan'l\n\n\n*This is WHORL, for discussion of Gene Wolfe's Book of the Long Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2001-08-03T14:29:26+00:00", "subject": "RE: (whorl) First time poster & thoughts on Scylla", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWelcome Peacefrog." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What he said.\n \n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it may be time for another pass through the Books of the [Foo]\nSun, \nor at least Short, with the specific goal of observing _everything_ that\n\n_anyone_ prays for (at least to the Increate a/k/a the Outsider) ... I \nshould not be at all surprised to discover that people invariably get\nwhat \nthey pray for (though generally in an unexpected and perhaps\ndifficult-to-\nrecognize form). As a side topic, I should also not be surprised to\nlearn \nthat Horn keeps _every_ promise he makes to anyone along the way.\n(Again, \ngenerally in an unexpected etc.) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I wouldn't be surprised to learn that every prophecy ever made comes\ntrue. (Though in the _Long Sun_, there's a point where Incus thinks\nScylla has possessed Chenille again, but he's wrong.)\n\nAll this could be interpreted as evidence of the texts' reflecting the\nnarrators' imaginations more than any \"real\" events. On the other hand,\nit can be seen as reinforcing the plausibility of the narrative; maybe\nevery guess the narrators make is right (in fact, an \"inspired guess\")." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman" } ] } ] }